[LONG POST] Re: Loose ends!

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[LONG POST WARNING]

Timothy Litteral wrote:
 

> established: True revelation is infallible but may not
> necessarily be applicable to the whole and public
> proclamation of even what is based upon revelation "may" be
> flawed since it has an element of personal interpretation
> inherent in that it is, unless given word for word, the
> persons "opinion" of what the infallible revelation means.

Amen and amen.  I agree thoroughly!  Bravo!  God way of saying it.
My thoughts are subject to error as all of our's are.


> I would at this point like to address a couple of
> points that Bro. Blume (Is this the proper reference?  For
> better or worse we are fairly informal at my church and of
> course address Elders as such but usually call the Pastor,
> a FINE man of God, Elder Smith.) 

Fine!!

> has raised.  

> The 7 year thing is a little to detailed to go into now.  I
> can only say that I never read Daniel to come up with it
> nor do I know what Bro. Blume is refering to.  

Just read Daniel 9:24-27 and notice that fromt he commandment
to restore Jerusalem until the coming of the Messiah would
be 69 weeks.  These are weeks of years, and not days.  HEPTADS.
70 heptads.  70 sets of seven.  And HERE is where the controversy
starts.  

Many believe that the 69 weeks ENDED at Christ's death and that
now there is a GAP, when God will not deal with the jews, during which
time the CHURCH age occurs.  Some feel that God will turn back to
the Jews when the Church is raptured, since God told Daniel that 70 weeks 
are determied "for thy people" (Israel).  Since they feel God cannot
deal with the Church and the Jews at the same time, the church MUST
be raptured BEFORE he turns to the Jews and restarts the "clock"
ticking again to finish the 70th week.

...Pre tribulation rapture theory.

Since there is this 70th week of seven years (again, not a week of
days), they feel this is the same period divided into TWO PARTS
of equal time known as Time, times and half a time - or 3.5 years -
or 42 months (since alll Jewish months are 30 days even).

Since Revelation mentions 3.5 years, they feel this flows with 
"Daniel's 70th week" being the remaining years left to deal with
Israel.

It is all based upon the  premise that the "HE" in the following verse
is antichrist.

Dan 9:27  And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: 
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and 
the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations 
he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that 
determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Since ANTICHRIST is interpreted as being the one mentoned in the previous
verse as:

Dan 9:26  ...the prince that shall come...

...they feel this is the "He" spoken of in verse 27.  This "prince that 
shall come" is felt to be the "antichrist", since "the people of the 
prince that shall come" who "shall destroy the city and the sanctuary"
were ROMANS.  Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.
(And this is why many feel the POPE is the antichrist since the people 
who destroyed Jerusalem were Romans, and these people were of the 
"prince that shall come".)

The "prince that shall come" was definitely a Roman.  Titus, to be exact.  
Daniel prophesied that a Roman armies were led to destroy Jerusalem in 
70 AD.  After the Messiah came!  

Some think the Roman influence simply means the antichrist will
come from the old roman empire which covered Europe.  So the antichrist
will be a European.  And that the "prince that shall come" did not lead
Rome to destroy Jerusalem, but that he will come much later in time
since the destruction of Jerusalem as the "Antichrist."  The people
who destroyed Jerusalem were merely "of" this prince.  IOW, the rpince
need not of necessity have lived during that time, but merely
be "Roman".

This, in my opinion, is all based on a false premise.  That being the
"HE" in 9:27 is the antichrist.  I do not think it is the antichrist.
For "HE" to be the Antichrist, or the "prince that shall come" of verse
26, "the prince that shall come" must have been the SUBJECT of the
previous sentences.  But he was not.  He was a "side thought."

The SUBJECT of the previous verse, was THE MESSIAH.  Or to be picky,
the clause after the subject of the Messiah could see the "people of the
prince that shall come" as being the subject.  In any case the "Prince
that shall come" is not the subject anywhere, grammatically speaking.

FInd out who "he" is and we will find out whether the 70th week
of Daniel is indeed yet to come, or already fulfilled.  For is JESUS
was "HE", then the total 70 weeks of Daniel are fulfilled, and the 3.5
years in Revelation have nothing to do with Daniel's 70th week.

> As for
> having been prejugdiced by hearing things from out side
> sources that have some how tainted my opinions, I would
> like to point out that even Bro. blume has been exposed to
> this and from what I read to a greater degree than I.  

Agreed.  But I abandoned them.


> As for the "elect" vs. the "bride," this goes back to the
> logical argument "all bears are animals therefore all
> animals are bears"
> paradigm.  "All in the bride are elect therefore all elect
> are in the bride" is just as incorrect as the above
> statement.  The term "Bride of Christ" was used exclusively
> for the New Testament Chruch.

If the Church is called the ELECT by Paul, specifically when
Paul referred to Gentile believers, then nothing proves the
"elect" of Revelation are not the Church.

Elect simply means chosen.  We were chosen "in Christ" before 
the foundation of the world.  The Jews were chosen in another 
sense.  Both are elect, but in different senses.

> Two more and I gotta go, I have a PILE of work to do!
> 
> The proceedure for a Jewish bridegroom was the betrothal
> (rebirth) after which the groom "went to prepare a place"
> for the bride.  When the place was prepared, the groom
> returned for the bride BUT WOULD NOT ENTER INTO THE HOUSE
> OF THE BRIDE since she was to be anxiously awaiting His
> return and was to come running out (forsaking her former
> life) at the trumpet blast of the grooms "head servant"

Notice at the "last trump" in the seven trumpets :

Rev 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, 
when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be 
finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

What mystery did the prophets witness of?

Eph 6:19  And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that 
I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Rom 16:25  Now to him that is of power to stablish you 
according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, 
according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept 
secret since the world began,
Rom 16:26  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of 
the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting 
God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Eph 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according 
to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he 
might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which 
are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

My view is that the The "mystery" of salvation will not end until 
the seventh trumpet.  When the bride hears the trumpet.

For if there is a last trump...

1 Cor 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the 
LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall 
be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

There must be others preceding it!  What other trumpets?  Only ones
mentioned in prophecy are the seven trumpets!

> (Michael) and return to the "bride house" where she gave an
> account of her fidelity verbally and was arrayed in a white
> "robe" REVELATION CH 7.  There is AFTERWARD the feast Rev
> ch 14. And then the consumation when the bride and groom
> are made one flesh.  Any "national Jew" in this numbers
> loses his nationality since he is in Christ.

Rev. 19 is well after Babylon has fallen and THEN the Bride
has made herself ready.

> If there is a rapture of the Chruch and the national Jews
> are left behind they will still be refered to as the
> "elect" since they are the "chosen" or the 144,000.  

True.  But if the church goes through tribulation, she can be
called the elect, since she is elected through grace.

> All
> that 12 sq. and "totality" stuff is 100% an the beam to use
> a term of an old friend.  It means that these will be the
> "entirety" of those "marked" by God to recieve the promise.
>  What promise?

Where does Revelation's reference to the 144,000 refer to a 
"promise"?  (See Rev ch's 7 and 14) 

> The 144,000 recieve the promise of Abraham (land) when they
> walk into the New Jerusalem, having survived "Jacob's
> trouble," that comes down from heaven and are ruled by
> Christ and "His Bride."  For continuity ask yourself where
> the Old Testament Jews were ever promised that they reign
> with anyone
> but are promised the land as theirs for and everlasting
> inheritance.

Lookm in Rev. 7 and see that the 144,000 are called "servants"
as are the church belivers!

Rom 1:1  Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be 
an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

And they have been sealed wit hthe seal of God.

2 Cor 1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of 
the Spirit in our hearts.

Eph 1:13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word 
of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that 
ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Holy Ghost!

> We the Bride are promised the "rule" with our Husband/King.
> 
> My intro is forth coming.  You will all find that Bro.
> Blume and I are not really at odds.  We agree on many
> things and disagree on many others.

Amen.
 
> The one thing that I am sure that we both agree on is that
> a perfect or even minimal understanding of the book of
> Revelation is in no way required for salvation.  

Exactly!!!

> This is
> one reason it was allowed to be "sealed" for nearly 2000
> years.  There are Spiritual Truths that are timeless
> however.  These can add richness and depth to anyones walk
> with God!
> 
> Timothy Litteral
> 472 Grant St.
> Marion Ohio 43302
> trlitteral@usa.net
> http://members.tripod.com/~trlitteral

-- 
---
In Christ,  
Michael F. Blume   
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/mfblume/mblume.htm
http://www.netdot.com/jwg7192/writings/mike.htm