Prophecy re-thinking?

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On second inspection, I find that I am answering a post that I THINK
was answered earlier, again :-) Anyway, they are different comments
...


On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:17:32 -0800, you wrote:

>> Some say the mark is a computer chip. Others say it is something else.
>> Mainly it is a *mark*. What locusts are is not really important to one
>> view of scripture or another.
>
>I disagree somewhat.  That which is forwarded to us in the Bible is 
>indeed there for us to understand.  God wastes no words.  He wrote
>them for us to receive a message.  I know you agree.  So since He
>spoke about "locusts" (Which, BTW, I feel are simply demon spirits),
>He desires us to understand a certain aspect of truth.

The point is this: If you believe they represent demon spirits (which
is quite reasonable), and in fact, in a period of time coming these
symbols prove to be a fitting picture of something which literally
manifests on earth in a quick period of"great tribulation", then fine.
You were edified in your understanding, but then again, those who
poked through to the anticipation of great triulation, and saw some of
the future ought not to suffer rebuke ... or should they ?

>> >For one person says it is a computer chip.  Another says it is going to church on Sunday.
>> 
>> I agree that there is rampant speculation in these matters. I do not
>> agree that a massive abstraction is the answer, nor do I feel that the
>> variations in SOME interpretations are of much significance. 
>
>One person's abstraction is another's heart-felt revelation.

Oh, please forgive me. The heartfelt revelations which you have been
posting, for exmaple, converning the "sweet tasting book", are
certainly a part of our understanding. I have never read the
introduction to Jesus' Revelation through John withpout seeing Jesus
emanating from within the churches - I think others feel this way too.


But, again, where the whole of the literal is denied, for the sake of
the abstract (which as I said, we all read privately and richly - yes,
God does speak to us privately on these matters -as you say, THROUGH
the Holy Ghost experience, and yes this IS the rich material of
prophecy), the "heart-felt" revelation of another is reduced to
"Darbyite prattle."

>> It was  clearly not highly significant that the individual receive a specific
>> revelation from these pages, though he is BLESSED to receive what he
>> does receive. 
>
>I disagree with that.  But, let's continue.

If it was highly significant, even in your mind, then it would seem
important to suggest why others who have the Holy Ghost don't or
haven't preached these pages with great priority.

I am making this point: When God uses the abstract to speak to our
spirits (as he obviously has in Revelation) he has deliberately put up
a wall between the common and the holy. We know this to be God's way
(see Matt 13). As I mentioned elsewhere, the plain ministers to one,
and the hidden to another, however, the plain is not untrue.

Please note that well. The plain is not untrue. It is for this reason
that the world, with all its charlatans, kooks, false prophets,
profiteers, private agents, and denominations knows one basic Bible
idea more than any other, save perhaps Calvary. That is, the
anti-christ and "666"... The world rightly anticipates a tremendous
catharsis BECAUSE of the message of the Bible through Daniel and
Revelation, no matter WHO preached it.

God speaks to the world by means of this Bible. The world may not,
indeed it does not know the finer things of the Spirit. But the world
DOES receive the incontrovertable witness of God's documentation
regarding his own plan.

Yes, judgement is coming. 

Yes, the literal physical nation of Israel is being restored to a
place of international prominence.

Yes, as Zechariah said, repentance and the knowledge of the identity
of Jesus Christ will come to a people who were blinded.

Is this the only message of these pages? No, of course not. The mind
of God and the spirit of his revelator are rich with the admonition
and correction of the Lord.

>> The message adresses the churches across the ages all of
>> which have gotten something completely different, 
>
>Do you mean to say that Rev. 13:16 was "intended" to mean on ething
>to the 15th century believer and another to the 20th?  Just 
>seeking clarification, that's all.

Speaking entirely with regard to the OUTWARD message of the prophecy:

No, certainly not, however most of the eras have concluded something
similar with regard to the outward. It is of little surprise that only
the ACTUAL endtime generation would see these matters with near
perfect clarity.

As to the inner revelations of the church - no, all spirit filled
readers ought to revieve all the richness, all the time.


>> but as with Napolean
>> and the men of the middle European period, the antichrist is
>> anticipated to be a singular and real epitome of the spirit which
>> substiutues for and opposes Christ. The surrounding scenario has
>> classically been interpretted in local timeframe.
>
>Agreed. But what did God intend?  I suppose that if one looked at Revelation
>as the last generation book alone then one could see how "any" interpretation
>taken throughout the ages would indeed do that generation good.  However,
>this seems to say that the lest generation had better not take it wrong, 
>though.

Yes - many considered the book to be hidden and mysterious throughout
the ages. There are several reasons

1 - It *is* hidden to some extent, in parable :-) Prophecy reveals AND
veils.

2 - All people and every generation is inclined to consider all
prophecy to have immediate impact on themselves. This is not true, for
God deals with 1000 years as a day. annual or centenial revisions of
the Word are not authorized, so ... each generation is NOT directly
effected by ALL prophecy. However all may THINK that they are. God is
wise, and knows the hearts of men. If men are liars and misread the
scriptures, God is not responsible for that. To see the Kingdom of
God, a person must be born of water and spirit. But to hear and be
moved by the word of God, a person must simply have ears and be above
room temperature.

God sees and reveals the end from the beginning. He is not like us.
His mind is not like our carnal mind. When the actual times which God
framed in prophecy come to synch with or overlap with the revelation,
it becomes eveident. Others, in earlier times, ALSO thought that they
saw things merging.. I think we can understand the difference.

Many today are making a lot of noise about protecting people from
"end-time mania". I agree! We ought not to put things out of
balance...

However, I for one think this very ironic, since I believe that we
have moved beyond the rehearsal stages, and are now seeing the final
curtains. 

What a time for so many people to get wise and say, right on schedule:
"... Where is the  promise   of   his   coming ? for since the fathers
fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning  of
the creation. " - 2 Peter 3:3

I believe that it is VERY DIFFICULT for the last generation to take it
wrong - but, in Jersusalem, there was MANY MANY people who did not
know the time of their visitiation, though they should have.

>> >For example, as above, the LAW OF GOD is to be bound on the right hand
>> >and as frontlets between the eyes.  Literally?  No.  This represents the
>> >whole mind, soul, and body being dedicated to God's laws.  So why would
>> >Rev 13's mark of the beast be a literal phsycial data chip if that which
>> >god tells us to bind on the hand and forehead is only figurative.
>> 
>> This ia thought that my influence thinking, but is not sufficiently
>> developed to prevent there from being a litteral manifestation of the
>> binding to the hand and head. 
>
>>From my experience in scripture, the cross-referencing usually reveals
>SIMILAR interpretations between two texts.  I cannot think of any biblical
>vision that was symbolic to "good" but literal to "evil".  

Perhaps Im a little lost here. You were relating the writing of the
symbol of the number in the hand or head, to God's command to subject
ourselves wholly to His word.

Thats fine - I dont see the arguement.  From your own anaylsis, the
antichrist spirit wants to accomplish the same thing, relating to his
precepts. 

My point was merely this: the spiritual principles are often played
out in the real world, and ought to be. Orthodox Jews today make
literal practice of binding the word to head and hand as did some in
ancient times. This displays their fervent belief that somewhere
beyond this symbol there is a God whose word is supreeme.

The anti-christ wants no less devotion. Agreed, he gets it often in
the abstract. In coming times, he will get it in manifest
representation also. The good/evil axis of the symbolism is not an
issue here. Both are evident.

>For some reason God always used symbolisms in the visions He gave to
>people in the Bible.  Please consider this.
>
>> Unless we are to leap from the sober
>> mindset into aestheticism and manicheanism, the material world HAS
>> significance and is often thought of as an analog to the spiritual
>> realm. 
>
>My point is that Biblical VISIONS always used symbols and never were 
>direct literal pictures.

Oh - I would have to disagree with this. I think you will too,
ultimately.

>The prophets often asked God what the vision meant, for they knew it was 
>symbolic.

Yes they did, AND id they did, as with Daniel, they got answers that
TOLD them what the vision meant, and were given an answer that was
literal. :-) God is not the author of confusion.

>> In this, we still see today see Hassidim putting the scriptures
>> on their hands and heads. They are unenlightened yes. But they do.
>
>Does that make the fact that the scriptures denoting the Law on the 
>hand and forehead was INTENDED to be taken literally?

Nope. God goes WAY BEYOND intention.. God is the revealer of what WAS
and WHAT IS, and what WILL BE. 

The word will be manifest literally (in some way, though perhaps not
as Hal Lindsey - since you mentioned him - saw it).

>It is not what men think or do but what God intends.

God reveals exactly what Men will do.. And, Man has opportunity to SEE
and HEAR what God intends, IF they will seek Him. I think you place
too great a restriction on the power of God, Brother.

>> There is literally an altar in the heavenlies. God commanded that in
>> the pattern revealed, there ought to be one made here on earth, under
>> Moses.
>
>Who is to say that the altar is physical?  We are the image of God, 
>but does that mean God literally has flesh.  No.,  That is well known.  
>And although you may be correct (which I am not saying you are not),
>I merely point out that your reasoning simply cannot apply 
>in every case, especially built on the example you just gave when compared
>to man being in God's image.

I am saying that the alter is in heaven. The word "physical" obviously
falls short. You and I dont have the mental ability to understand the
nature of the meta-physical. 

When we say something is not "physical",  ALL we are saying is that it
does have such nature as to be measured by dimensions that are natural
to this creation in which we find our fleshly existance arising. That
is, TIME AND SPACE. However, that is not to say that those things
which God reveals IN time and space, which are a representation of
those things that are in heaven, do not have another scale of measure.
We simply do not understand it, or deal in it easily. In fact, I doubt
very much that it is legal for man to speak in terms of heavenly
measure.

The holiness principles we  receive from the Bible are REAL and
IMMEDIATE - they are not symbolic. What we do with our BODIES is
theultimate proof of what we will do with our SPIRITS. When people
give MONEY, it is the realization of their love for the work of God
and for the brethren. When thy tithe, it is the ACTUAL recognition and
appreciation of the abundance of God's blessings. When they are BURIED
in WATER in the NAME of JESUS CHRIST there is ACTUAL remission of
sins. 

Things that are true in principle are ultimately proven on earth. Even
the eternal life of God will result in a PHYSICAL RESSURECTION ? Is
this necessary ? Not to us! We can go directly from a life which fall
short of complete perfection in fleshly terms to the presence of God,
but God doest not consider this work complete. He will resurrect the
body, and cause these redeemed vessels to live on with Him forever.

So - the visions impart understaning of a reality to come, as well as
hidden mysteries.

>> The physical world is not the spiritual world, but as we pray "Thy
>> Kingdom come thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven".
>
>Indeed, Heaven is spiritual.  There is a physical manifestation of
>many spiritual things.  Not all, but many.  And God's will done in
>earth does not prove that what is a pattern on the earth is 
>physical and literal in the heavenlies.

>We simply cannot say for sure.

I agree. The point is, God speaks on many "levels" - the visions of
the endtimes are real, and there is a warning for mankind there. There
is more to it than that however, as you have been illustrating.

>> The Holy Ghost experience IS the Kingdom of God, but is God going to
>> be manifest upon the earth again, materially, in a specific tabernacle
>> of glorified flesh? Yes. the Bible is clear about that. 
>
>Just a moment.  God is SPirit.  And He manifests through the saints
>who are both spiritual and physical.  Humans are the only creation
>that are both spiritual and physical.  To say God manfests in flesh,
>glorified or not, is not to say God HAS flesh, anymore than we can say
>a literal physical altar exists in glory.  I do not know exactly
>what the altar is.  But I simply point out that we cannot say for
>sure either way.

Well Brother Blume, we may depart very severely on this point. The
Bible says that Jesus ascended and those who watched were told that 
"... this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so
come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." - Acts 1:11b

When the disciples searched the tomb, they found NO body. When Mary
saw Jesus, she was prohibited from touching a body. When Thomas wanted
more confidence, Jesus told him to examine his BODY.

Jesus said "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the
holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
(Matt 25:31)

It says here "the Son of MAN" - this phrase refers to the flesh. The
prophet Zechariah fortold of his literal coming to deliver Israel on
the Mt of Olives.

>> Does that make the flesh God ? No.. of course not. But Israel's David (yes, the
>> national Israel apart from the church, which today lives in blindness)
>> will see her "David" reign over the earth, as the Power of God
>> literally impacts itself in a political sense on the earth. The church
>> is not that power .. such AMILLENIAL concepts are Catholic at root,
>> and purport to see the kingdoms of this earth become the kingdoms of
>> our Lord under the weight of the influence of the Church.
>
>Labels such as "amillennial" often confuse the issue and they can have
>an affect of initimidating people from ever believing anything involved 
>in such and such a group.  Now, I disagree sharply with RCC tradition and 
>dogma, but I have noticed that many "millennial" prophecies INDEED do 
>relate to the Church now!  Who could not apply Isaiah 11 with the Church
>age as well as the Millennium?

I dont think its confusing.

Amillenial means (no transition to beginning of a kingdom where the
devil is bound and God reigns over all the earth). Amillenialists
believe that God reigns through the church right now.

I have noticed that the Kingdom of God which IS present on the earth
does display  eternal principles at work right here and now. However,
it dont take a rocket scientist to realize the world still has a lot
of inoluable problems and that Jesus Christ, though our Lord is still
the worlds Lamb. Unless you are Amillenial, you believe that that is
fixing to change.

>> Revelation begins in confirming Zechariah saying "Every eye will see
>> Him" and refer to a specific time on the Mt of Olives. Jesus, still
>> living in mortal flesh, put the time frame in the future. He did not
>> leave room for an unending, and perpetual stretching forward of
>> history, but pointed to a specific END, politically, spiritually, and
>> judicially.
>
>Agreed. Yet this does not limit everything in Revelation to these 
>limitations.

No, and I did not say that people are not entitled to their
intepretations of Revelation. However, I am saying that there is going
to be a fuss when the material projection of the endtimes is messed
with, for many reasons.

And no, it is not because we are sold out to tradition and uninspired.
It is because we are inspired in such a way that we raise up some of
these anticipations with good reasons, AND with anointing, whether
someone else feels it or not.

>> >Comparative study  itself shows the popular ideas to be incorrect.
>> >Where is the corss referencing for computer chips in the Bible?
>> 
>> Where is any modern nomenclature?
>
>Nomenclature or not, there is no similar cross-referencing to
>the thought of computer chips even using the vocabulary of the day
>elsewhere in the Bible.  Again, John saw a vision.

Please... once again. there is no modern nomenclature ANYWHERE in the
the scripture. This does not mean that the scriptures could not speak
regarding elements that would be most easily expressed in modern
terms. It does.

John relates his vision this way in Rev 13
6  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and
bond, to  receive   a   mark  in their right hand, or in their
foreheads:  17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had
the  mark , or the name of the beast, or the number of his name

OK.. Whatever... a chip ? I dunno - I doubt it. A credit card ? A id
number somehow related to his mind or handwriting ? I dunno ..

But the idea of it is that without it, a person cannot buy or sell.

Oh, you say "its not a he at all that does this... its a 'system'" -
ok.. heres one stage of degradation... Now, we say "its not really
buying and selling, like at a store, its doing business with the lusts
of the world".. yes ok... 

I guess we all have to decide exactly what we think of scripture.

>> >My former post gives the example of the name of God on the
>> >forehead.  We know that is not literal.  But we say the mark of the
>> >beast is literal?
>> 
>> The mark of the beast is something that the BEAST implements to HIS
>> satisfaction in attempting to have all of humanity worship him. 
>
>That is highly based on interpretation again.  I can say that God
>wishes to reveal something to the church in a visionarly symbol in the
>manner in which God wishes to reveal it.  This has nothing to do with
>the way the Beast wishes to implement a thing.  I am saying that the same
>God who showed us a symbol of bearing Jesus' name also showed us similarly a
>symbol of the counterfeit.  It is not how the beast will do anything so much 
>as how God reveals events to occur.  

Im loosing you Brother..

Since when is it "interpretive" to read the following words literally 

"6  And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and
bond, to  receive   a   mark  in their right hand, or in their
foreheads:  17  And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had
the  mark , or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" ???

I would say this ... your comments are highly interpretive to forgo
reading them plainly.

Listen: God dictate HOW and WHAT the antichrist's prophet can and will
do. God KNOWS and GOD reveals. If there is symbol here, fine! Read it,
be encouraged by it. Apply it. 

>Now, if God gave a vision elsewhere in the Bible involving two similar
>terms of vocabular, such as the two seals or marks in Rev 13
>and Rev 14, and one was literally fulfilled and the very next one was
>symbolic then I might have a tendency to be more agreeable to
>your persuasion.  But it is not.  And, being open to the fact that
>it MAY BE a bio-chip causes me not to ever receive one, I will not 
>say I know for sure it is NOT a bio-chip.  I just do not think it is.


To be honest, I am happy to hear to concended that there even might be
such a thing as a literal mark.

>Again, bio-chips would be too obvious, and Satan is going to subtly
>try to deceive the world including the church - and if it were
>possible the very elect would be deceived.

Too obvious ? Why ? polls today indicate that while a few decades ago,
the population of the USA would have resisted such actions. But today
a very small minority would be adverse to it. Times are a-changing.
The world is adjusting. It wants a god to solve it's problems.

Unless we blur the actual text, the deceptions do not relate
completely to the mark, there are many more impressions that the
characters (please not the plural, since the referenced scripture, Mat
24:24 read carefully, does not relate only to one character, but many
deceivers over a LONG period of time, not only the specific short time
times and a half time of THE false prophet's (Rev 13:11-17) influence.

Here also, the words "if it were possible" are important and ought not
to be overlooked.

>> >I also evaluated their thoughts and thought them to be true.  But after
>> >more experience in the Spirit in my life I found they actuallly only
>> >made "good sense".  That feeling that I could follow these guys and
>> >see their logic caused me to think it was therefore truth.  I discovered
>> >things that may seem to make sense are not necessarily true.
>> >
>> >And when I corss referenced the thoughts of Revelation with the rest
>> >of the Bible - WOW! - things opened up!  Some of the results of such
>> >studies are on my homepage.
>> 
>> Yep.
>
>I am trying to say somethig is going on in my spirit regarding these things.

It seems, from numerous mentions that my turse three letter comment,
troubled you. Let me just remind you of something Brother. I am not
required by law or by fellowship or by even the Spirit of God to
concur with all that I hear, or even to get excited about someone else
getting excited. 

However I AM required to seek God, and to study, and to love my
brethren, and to contend for the faith. I appreciate that something is
going on in your spirit. I dont begrude you that and am very happy
about it. 


>Jesus said His kingdom was "in you".  He said it comes not with observation.
>It is Righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, as you already said.
>Yes, I believe He will physically manifest that Kingdom.  But nothing 
>explicitly and irrefutably says that.

I believe there is plenty of direct scriptural teaching as well as
witness of the Spirit that makes an anticipation inthe political order
and the bodily change of the church and the *subsequent* literal
return of Jesus Christ in body to rule on this planet, quite sound.


-mw bassett
milford, ct
http://eli.wariat.org/~mbasset