EGO EIMI, part I (was Re: Re: Two wills or One will?)

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>[concerning John 8:58...]
>
>>Many translations render this verse something like, "I existed before
>>Abraham did," 
>
>I guess I'll have to take your word for it.  Of the major english 
>translations I've consulted (KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, RSV, NRSV, YLT, Darby, 
>and Raymond Brown's translation/exposition), none render this according to 
>your many translations.  Even the NIV (which I think really imposes itself 
>too much in other "ego eimi" scriptures) leaves this one alone.  All the 
>above versions seem to agree to translate it something like the NIV's:  
>"...before Abraham was born, I Am!"  Look Ma! No brackets!! ;-) Naming one 
>or two of your prefered references would have been nice.

Yes, of course. There is _An American Translation_ by the University of
Chicago, other work by Lightfoot and Goodspeed, and Rotherham if I remember
correctly.

>I don't think so.  The reaction of Jesus' audience (they, desiring His 
>arrest and execution by stoning) indicates that He basphemed in some way. 
>According to the law, claiming a preposturously long existence doesn't seem 
>to warrant this.  At least as far as I can tell. They might've considered 
>him a nut-case, but not a blasphemer.  The fact that he barely escaped 
>earlier for the charge of making himself God (with a capital G) seems to 
>point to the likelihood of the same accusation here.

So you make the same accusation that Pharisees made concerning his
testimony, making yourself guilty of their error?

>>When Jesus said "Unless you
>>believe that I am he, you will die in your sins." Did he mean the Father?
>>Obviously, not, since his own testimony was not that was God, but rather
>>that God sent him down from heaven to drink the bitter cup of submission.
>
>The relationship between the Word/Son and God/Father is a separate but 
>related issue which I will not treat here. But, the fact that the Johannine 
>prologue clearly states that as the Word he is not only eternally with God, 
>but also *is* God, would seem to point to Christ's Deity.

Good point, Charles, as I expect from so fine a mind as yours, dear brother.
However, I might point out that JOhn 1:1 makes no sense whatsoever as
translated by the King James or the jehovahs Witnesses. I have posted at
length on that in the past, I prefer the rendering : "IN THE BEGINNING, THE
WORD WAS WITH THE GOD, AND GODLY (or divine) WAS THE WORD." The "THE"
appearing in the Greek makes the true God distinct from the divinity of the
Word in the next clause. But it does imply to me "the God" (Trinity) or "a
god" (JW).

Remeber, God created the heavens and earth THROUGH his Son. Not just FOR THE
IDEA of his Son, but THROUGH him clearly implying agency. Jesus said, "I am
the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION of God." Paul called him, "the firstborn of
every creature" and John says in his prologue, "WITHOUT him was nothing made
which was made" obvioulsy implying that WITH him, in TANDEM with the Son,
the Father produced all things.

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