EGO EIMI, part I (was Re: Re: Two wills or One will?)

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[concerning John 8:58...]

>Many translations render this verse something like, "I existed before
>Abraham did," 

I guess I'll have to take your word for it.  Of the major english 
translations I've consulted (KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, RSV, NRSV, YLT, Darby, 
and Raymond Brown's translation/exposition), none render this according to 
your many translations.  Even the NIV (which I think really imposes itself 
too much in other "ego eimi" scriptures) leaves this one alone.  All the 
above versions seem to agree to translate it something like the NIV's:  
"...before Abraham was born, I Am!"  Look Ma! No brackets!! ;-) Naming one 
or two of your prefered references would have been nice.

>As if to say, he is older than Abraham. The context of the
>verb is such that it appears present tense to imply a continuing action. 
>"I
>have been existing since prior to Abraham". 

I don't have a problem with the concept of His eternal existence as such. 
(cf John 1:1)  But is this really the main thrust of Jesus' response?  In 
light of the questions Jesus' critics put forth, it doesn't seem likely.  
To paraphrase your scenario:
"You are not yet 50 years old", the Jews said to him, "and you have seen 
Abraham?"
"I tell you the truth", Jesus replies, "I'm really REALLY old!"

I don't think so.  The reaction of Jesus' audience (they, desiring His 
arrest and execution by stoning) indicates that He basphemed in some way. 
According to the law, claiming a preposturously long existence doesn't seem 
to warrant this.  At least as far as I can tell. They might've considered 
him a nut-case, but not a blasphemer.  The fact that he barely escaped 
earlier for the charge of making himself God (with a capital G) seems to 
point to the likelihood of the same accusation here.

>When Jesus said "Unless you
>believe that I am he, you will die in your sins." Did he mean the Father?
>Obviously, not, since his own testimony was not that was God, but rather
>that God sent him down from heaven to drink the bitter cup of submission.

The relationship between the Word/Son and God/Father is a separate but 
related issue which I will not treat here. But, the fact that the Johannine 
prologue clearly states that as the Word he is not only eternally with God, 
but also *is* God, would seem to point to Christ's Deity.

Happy Holidays,

Charles Ormsbee