Fw: BEAST OF REVELATION

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Hi again Robert

> Please, look in detail at that word "generation": . . .
> So "generation" does not mean what this discussion has been assuming
> that it meant; it means a people of a birth, of a common father, and
> several ranks of natural descent.  

Not really.

Translating the Bible from ancient and dead languages into modern 
living languages is not a task you should take lightly. Certainly not 
something everyone with an Online-Bible could do. Bible translations is 
done by real experts, not me and you. How many Bible translations do 
you know that does *not* use the English word "generation" in, ie, Mt 
24:34?

This should tell if your translation is a likely one.

>                                    Sounds like the birth Jesus was
> speaking about was not that group of men alive at the moment of the
> speaking, but that group about to be born of the water and the 
> spirit.

Not at all! The context of the words does not allow your 
interpretation. You have to first force the grammar, and then you have 
to force the context. That's too much.

  Mt 24:33,34 "So also, when you see all these things, you know that he 
  is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will 
  not pass away till all these things take place."

Jesus said "when YOU see". Who was "you"? It is simply not possible to 
interpret this any other way: the "you" were the disciples Jesus was 
talking to. Otherwise, Jesus would be misleading his disciples. How 
could they expect that he wasn't talking to them but to some invisible 
audience 1900+ years later? Note also the word "this", as opposed to 
"that", ie something distant in time (past or future).

>        Sounds like he was saying, "This church shall not pass away
> till all these things be fulfilled."

If Jesus had meant this, he would have said it. I trust that Christ did 
not play games and intentionally mislead his disciples. It's appaling 
to what extent people will go to *not* see what the text itself says. 
These words are not really difficult to understand.

The word "generation" is by no means the only evidence. There is much 
overwhelming support in other scriptures for this interpretation.

I have already mentioned this scripture:

  Mt 16:28 "There are some standing here who will not taste death 
  before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." [RSV]

Michael Frazier did reply to this: 

|Many have interpreted "coming in His kingdom" to mean His 
|tranfiguration, which DID happen. 

This is true. A few Bible commentators post this interpretation, but 
most modern ones reject it. Again, if we look at the context it is not 
a natural interpretation. Allow me to quote the whole thing:

  Mt 16:27,28 "For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the 
  glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has 
  done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not 
  taste death before they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Jesus' audience would have every reason to assume that verse 27 and 28 
is the same thing. Jesus did certainly not "repay every man" during the 
secret transfiguration, which was only witnessed by 3 men, and they 
were not even allowed to talk to others about it. 

Jesus' choice of words again does not lend itself easily to an 
interpretation where the fulfillment came 6 days later. Jesus said 
"some standing here will not taste death", and this tells us something. 
The timespan was such that at least a few of them would naturally die. 
What would decide if they saw it or not, was if they *lived* to 
experience it, not if they were part of a tiny privilegued group.

Finally, let us look at the words the "Son of man coming in his 
kingdom," first by quoting the parallel version in Mark:

  Mr 9:1 "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there
  be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death,
  till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

Note that Marks remembers the Lord say "come with Power." Compare with 
this later apocalyptic message from Christ:

  Mt 24:30 "and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of
  heaven with power and great glory"

Is there any reasonable doubt it is the same event?

Space limits this; I have yet not mentioned the clear statements in 
Pauline letters where the apostle states affirmatively that some living 
then would live to witness the coming of the Lord. We can touch on this 
later, and you will see that the *imminent* coming of the Lord is a 
theme in practically all NT books. Can they all be wrong on such an 
important topic?


Cheers,
- Jan
-- 
          http://home.sol.no/jansh/wteng/jwindex.html