tithes

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On Fri, 25 Sep 1998 06:26:19 -0400 "Brian K. Berger"
<BKBerger@eli.elilabs.com> writes:
 
>> Either the OT Tithing system survived into this dispensation or it 
>>did not.
>
>Well the admonition of Paul in 1 Corinthians tells of provision for 
>the House of God. Other than that, except for Jesus words, no, there 
>is not mention of the word Tithe in the NT. 

Thank you.  I don't know why it is so hard for people to just say that a
NT tithe is not scriptural.  I did some checking, and the earliest I
could find mandatory tithing in the NT Church was in the fifth century. 
I could find NO indication of Pre-Nicene tithing.

>Brian-
>> >I guess those Washingtons need to be introduced to the Lincolns,
>> Jeffersons, and Yes even Ben Franklin needs to go to church more
often!! 
>
>Jerry- 
>> I agree wholeheartedly.  We cannot expect much from our Church if we
>> don't help support it in prayers, physically when physical work is
>> needed, time and with our finances. 
>
><snip>
>
>I want everyone following this post to get that thought. You do not do 
>away with offerings, but do not see a set mandate of a percentage. I 
>am at a loss as to what to suggest to replace the tithe. 

That's the whole point; NOTHING replaced the tithe and I don't know
anyone in this dispensation who has the scriptural authority TO replace
it.  

Again, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't give to our local Churches.

>One story is told of a resturant that did not put prices on the menu. 
>You would just pay what you felt the meal was worth. The resturant 
>could not survive. They then put suggested prices on the menu and 
>thrived. 10% is a fair bench mark for giving in most cases. 

But should not be a benchmark for any type of determination of holiness,
or, worse yet a measure of salvation.

>Brian- 
>> >Amazing that when the few who seem to be struggling are also the 
>> >ones staying in the pew when the offering is marched. 
>
>Jerry-
>> I strongly disagree here.  My mother is financially struggling and 
>she has never missed paying tithes that I can remember.
>> 
>> It is, IMHO, wrong to judge someone's worth, either spiritually or
>> physically, by their ability to pay money to a Church.
>
>We are in agreement. The amount does not make the person. What I was 
>illustrating, was the few who give are blessed. God does make 
>provision. 

I agree, but I don't use that to determine who I fellowship with.  

>> Besides, they aren't even going to Heaven anyway, right?  No great 
>>loss there...
>> 
>> Today we are preaching that the widow who only gave two mites had 
>better straighten up right now or she will go to Hell...
>
>That is not what is being said. 

Read the archives; it IS being said by some here.  I believe that such a
stand is wrong.  I have been told that if you don't tithe, you are a "God
Robber" and thieves can't inherit the Kingdom of God, so that would mean
that if you don't pay tithes you are going to Hell.

Not only that, but if you QUESTION leadership, you are being rebellious,
and rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft.  So questioning leadership
about tithes is doubly damning.

And if that widow was foolish enough to pay her bills first so that she
only had two mites left, well, she didn't have her "priorities straight",
because she wasn't putting God first obviously.

I have been told that paying tithes is more important than paying your
bills.  And where do you think people get that impression?  It is being
taught BEHIND THE PULPIT as Biblical Doctrine, contrary to both the Word
of God and to every historical account that I have ever read.  

>There has to be a way to pay for the light bill and the oil man 
>at the church house. 

Again, I agree with you, but if we are to be good stewards of what God
has given us, what kind of witness do we give the world if we are late on
paying OUR OWN light bills, etc. because the local Pastor doesn't want to
"rely on God 
to supply above and beyond their expectations"?  If the congregation is
expected to do that (I assume they are) then why does a Pastor have to
add to scripture to "help" God?  What is wrong with taking 2 Corinthians
9:7 as the template for NT giving?  

At least THEN they would have a scriptural foundation...

>Unless we pass the plate, there is not any money to help 
>the check book balance. 

I agree, and at NO TIME have I ever said anything against anyone giving
money to the Church.

I believe that it is necessary and it is the RIGHT THING TO DO.  Again,
however, that in no way supports a mandatory tithe.

>Brian-
>> >I saw this recently as I had pledged $100 extra. I then got a 
>> >blessing on the job and when my wife remembered the $100 it was 
>> >nearly the same as the increase. 
>
>Jerry-
>> I rejoice with you, but I believe that God could have also given 
>that to you if your alternator went out and instead of giving the extra
$100 
>had to pay to buy an alternator so that you could go to work and be a 
>good steward with your family and your job.
>
>Welllll, actually, we did in fact lose the alternator. 

I did, too, recently, that's why I used that as an example.  Worse yet,
when I was removing the battery, I cracked the bottom of it (the battery
was old; not as old as Brother Tyler, but still... <G> that's a JOKE,
btw!)  so I had to buy a new battery as well.

>Much more than $100 to repair it.

Do you have a foreign car?  I've got an '88 Lincoln Town Car that I
literally got by trading a computer for it.  I build computers on the
side.

The alternator was $117, I think, but I had to install it, and although I
am NOT a mechanic by any means, it wasn't that hard to do.

>I do not strike that to divine providence, just that the car is older
and 
>needs more frequent repairs. 

Oh, I wasn't saying that God was the cause of your alternator going out. 
I was saying that in the situation where you said you gave $100 extra, if
the day before, the alternator went out and you had only that money to
either fix the alternator or give to God and you fixed the alternator
instead, I believe that God would have seen the willingness in your heart
and could have still given you that blessing at work so that you would
have had it to give to the Church.

>The increase is over time more than a blessing (and eventually will pay
off the 
>alternator also). I do not believe in telling a family to use food money
to give 
>tithes. 

Or food stamps, either, yet I remember when I had to drop out of school
to get a job to help support my family (my father had died of emphysema),
the church actually took ten percent of my Mother's food stamps.  

>I am in favor of encouraging them to rely on God 
>to supply above and beyond their expectations. 

But the same should apply to a Pastor, right?  

Jerry Welch
ICQ: 18489712
www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/2810/
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