tithes

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> -----Original Message-----
> From:	lyohnk@juno.com [SMTP:lyohnk@juno.com]
> Sent:	Tuesday, September 22, 1998 9:36 AM
> To:	higher-fire@prairienet.org
> Subject:	Re: tithes
> 
> 
> On Mon, 21 Sep 1998 17:42:36 -0400 "Hanson, Bruce"
> <bruce.hanson@lmco.com> writes:
> 
> >Didn't you know that the "tithe" claimed to preexist the law in 
> >Genesis
> >14:20 (a single gift on the spoils of war, not income) and Genesis 
> >28:22
> >(a bargain or covenant for Gods protection) does not follow any of
> the
> >rules of the Law for tithes, besides it was Free will? 
> 
> This is before the specific legislation for tithes was set up.  In
> Gen.14:20 it is not "tithes" in quotations as is written above, but
> tithes. In Gen.28:22 it specifically mentions giving the tenth.  We
> all
> know that the tenth is the tithe. The fact tithes were before the Law
> cannot be belittled.
> 
	[Hanson, Bruce]  
	You should get a good Hebrew OT and see what word is used in Gen
14:20. The word is TENTH not Tithe. The two are not the same or
interchangeable unless like the KJV translators you wish to try to
establish a nonexistent link because that is what the King instructed.
This tithe does not follow the dictates of the law nor does the context
follow that conclusion. He gave all the spoils away - the rest went to
another king.

> >Didn't you know that tithing was only on animals and plants not 
> >monetary
> >income (Leviticus 27:31-32)?
> 
> This is a false statement using one verse only as it's basis. The very
> scripture quoted above,( Gen. 14:20) which specifically mentions
> tithes,
> was from the spoils of war. Also, back then, animals and plants WAS
> the
> basic income for many of the people (besides spoils of war).
> 
	[Hanson, Bruce]  
	This is and was a true statement. Check out the Jewish
commentaries on this. First, you're make a wishful link between this
reference and Gen 14:20 that is false. Second, in the time of the law
there was all kinds of commerce going on that was never mentioned in the
law to be tithed. Where do all the artisans for the ark and tabernacle
in the wilderness come from? They are mentioned as craftsmen in the OT.
Why would God say if you paid your tithe in $ there was a penalty of
20%? Because God did not make the money man did. God said of the
increase he provided to tithe. He provides life that is required for
plants and animals.

> >Didn't you know that you had to attain a level of wealth to tithe
> >animals - It was the tenth animal, if you had nine there was no tithe
> >(Leviticus 27:32)?
> 
> If someone owned 10 animals in a lifetime they would need to give the
> tenth unto the Lord, would they not?  This is not wealth.
> 
	[Hanson, Bruce]  
	No they would not. It was on a yearly basses on only what was
left at the time of the count. Animals that were lost, dead, or eaten
were not counted. Only real increase was counted.

> >Didn't you know that the tither could, in fact was instructed to,
> take
> >part of his tithe and consume it himself (Deuteronomy 12:17-19)?
> 
> In The Lord's Portion, Bro. Moss explained it this way.
> 
> There were three types of tithes:
> 
> 1. The Levitical Tithe
> 2. The Feast Tithe
> 3. The Poor Tithe.
> 
> The Levitical tithe is the most well known.  It was the tenth and went
> solely to the Levites.  The feast tithe ( the one mentioned in the
> scripture above) was to be eaten as a feast and shared with the
> Levites. 
> The poor tithe was to be given every third year and was for the poor
> AND
> the Levites.
> 
> In the Pictorial Bible Dictionary, page 857-" Was there only one tithe
> each year or was the third year tithe an extra one?  Confusion exists
> about this, even among Hebrew scholars themselves.As the needs for
> funds
> increased with the expansion of the temple service, a third year tithe
> all for the use of the Levites, made in necessary to impose extra
> tithes.
> According to Josephus, even a third tithe was collected."
> 
> My own opinion on this is that many come to the church for financial
> help.  Should this fall solely on the pocketbook of the minister as
> very
> often does?
> 
> Those who refused to pay tithes on time were penalized 20% BTW.
> (Leviticus 27:30-31)
> 
	[Hanson, Bruce]  
	The JPS commentaries on the OT (recognized by othodoxed Judaism)
do talk about three tithes, but they did not happen every year. The
years would run in blocks of seven. The first tithe was paid in year one
and four. The second tithe was paid in years 2 and 5 the third was paid
in years 3 and 6. On the seventh year there was no tithe because the
field were instructed to remain unused - thus no grain and no tithe. If
we wish to use this as the NT model of Tithe, how do we reconcile this
to the actual practice of preacher takes all?

> >Didn't you know that the tithe was also to be used for the widow,
> >orphan, fatherless and stranger (Deuteronomy 14:28,29)?
> 
> See above.
> 
	[Hanson, Bruce]  
	I agree see above

> >Didn't you know that the tither, at his option, if it was too far to 
> >get
> >to the temple could use his tithe for whatever his soul "lusted"
> after
> >(Deuteronomy 14:24-26)?
> 
> This is talking about the feast tithe and not the Levitical or poor
> tithe. He was still required to go to the temple for the feast but
> needed
> to turn his tithe into money.  When he got there he was to buy
> whatsoever
> his soul lusted after for the feast.  He was also admonished not to
> forget the Levite.
> 
	[Hanson, Bruce]  
	Just to be clear, I have not and do not believe the pastor of
the church should not get some compensation. It should be decided by the
body he pastors not by himself.

> >Didn't you know that the Levite was not exempt from the tithe law
> >(Numbers 18:26)? (Why do the preachers tithe 5% to the district and 
> >use
> >5% as they see fit, or tithe into their own church?)
> 
> The Levite payed his tithes to the priests.  The preachers tithe a
> percentage of money to the district.  The rest is NOT for as the
> preacher
> sees fit.  And may I ask you when you pay your tithes to the church is
> it
> the same as you getting to keep it?  We pay our tithes to the church
> to
> help pay the bills and thank God for it or we would have to close the
> doors. Maybe we should pay all of it into the district and then they
> could write us a check to keep the doors open.
> 
	[Hanson, Bruce]  
	Maybe you should. The Levites were not allowed to take tithe
from a Jew without a second levite present also. God did put some
safeguards into the OT system. But if you wish to be consistent with the
OT law of tithe shouldn't you have to take it all? Why do you feel you
can pick and choose amongst the rules - choosing only the ones that
directly benefit you?

> >Didn't you know you rob God by not using the tithe and offering as he
> >had instructed (Malachi 3:8 and Matthew 25:40)?
>  
> Of course.
> 
	[Hanson, Bruce]  
	Excellent - we agree!

> >	A church organization that allows itself the security to think
> >it's ministers can use Malachi 3:10 to coerce a tithe out of a
> >congregation, and yet believe they are immune from the law of it's 
> >use,
> >are guilty of the robbery they accuse their congregations of, for
> they
> >have robbed the fatherless, strangers, and widows in their gates.
> 
> This statement is erroneous.  First, the Lord himself commanded the
> tithe.  The tithe is the Lord's.  God will take care of his ministry
> whether the people refuse to follow God's command or not.  God pays us
> and we have to trust God all the time because there are people who
> refuse
> to pay their portion.  It is not coercion, it is a command.
> 
	[Hanson, Bruce]  
	Only if you are an OT Jew is it a command. Again I ask are you
going to implement all of the tithe law you love so much?

> >Didn't you know the law was ended by Christ, including tithing
> (Romans
> >10:4)?
> 
> Nope. Another false statement. The law was ended, tithing was not.
> 
	[Hanson, Bruce]  
	It is interesting to note that history as we know it says you
are wrong. The post law portion of the NT says nothing about doing it,
but does say in Galatians not to go back to the practices of the law. In
fact I would like you to answer to yourself only - do you give 10% of
your income (lets include housing, entertainment and other tax
deductible items that the clergy exclude from there income) to your
superior in the organization? If so at least you are honest about your
belief. If not why are you exempt?

	 >Didn't you know that the post law New Testament Church didn't
use
> >tithing as a way of financing (2 Corinthians 9:7)?
> 
> Nope. Wrong again.
> 
	[Hanson, Bruce]  
	I was talking to an old time Pentecostal lady who's husband was
a UPCI minister. She told me the early church in St. Paul MN and the
other UPC churches did NOT believe in tithing. Be that as it may,
History says you are wrong. It wasn't until the 6th to 8th century when
the Catholic church started it as a requirement. We as UPCI have copied
the Catholics lead here. 

> >		"Paul's instruction on the Jerusalem collection urges
> >voluntary giving (1 Corinthians 16:1-4;  2 Corinthians 8-9), which
> >became the practice of Christians until religious and civil 
> >authorities
> >(sixth and eighth centuries) initiated legislation mandating
> tithing."
> >(The Harper Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism, General Editor 
> >Richard
> >P. McBrien, Harper Collins Publishing, Inc.  1995, New York, NY, Page
> >1257)
> 
> There were freewill offerings in the OT also.  That does not do away
> with
> tithing.
> 
	[Hanson, Bruce]  
	There are no tithe offerings in the NT! You have to go to the
law of the OT to support your contention. 

> >Didn't we really know all of these thing, or are we willingly
> ignorant
> >of what the Word of God says so we can use it to fill our own pockets
> >with gold?
> 
> Who? Those who refuse to pay tithes? 
> 
	[Hanson, Bruce]  
	Why is the clergy so afraid of taking the Bible at its face
value on this subject. Do we believe the church we pastor will starve us
out unless we preach "tithe or go to hell" and then we take it all for
ourselves? Were do we get our mandate for this other than in self
preservation? Sure we have preaches that are on a starvation diet
because there church is small and we also have preaches that are
extremely well off because they believe all the tithe is theirs. Nether
situation is correct Biblically.

> James 5:4  "  Behold the hire of the laborers who have reaped down
> your
> fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of
> them
> which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth."
> 
	[Hanson, Bruce]  
	I agree that a workman is worthy of his hire. By the way this
goes a lot further than just the preacher. How about the Sunday school
Teacher? The Music? ... etc. I'm not for starving out the clergy. In
most years I give more than 10%, but I am for a board salaried preacher.

	may God Bless you - Bruce
	bruce.hanson@lmco.com
> Lynne Yohnk
> BTW, Bro. Welch, if The Lord's Portion is online I am not aware of it.
> 
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