A Shame?

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On Wed, 16 Sep 1998 09:13:23 -0500 lyohnk@juno.com (Lynne A. Yohnk)
writes:

>>How many saints is it okay to spiritually hurt or run out of Church 
>>before the promotion of a personal conviction would be deemed wrong 
>>by you?
>>
>>Is one enough?
>
>Yup.

Let me make sure that I understand you correctly: If a local standard (I
again use the definition as that to mean as something that is not a
Biblical Doctrine, that is universally applicable and/or necessary to
salvation) caused even one saint to leave, you would deem such a local
standard as wrong?

> Okay, I will address the issue of socks for a moment. 
>
>We must ask why this standard?  Something that seems stupid may have a 
>very good reason.  Say we are in a city where a bad gang that kills 
>people has mandated that all members wear a certain color of socks. 

I don't know of any Gangs that require certain colors of socks.  Besides,
does that mean that Churches in L.A. should have local standards not to
wear red or blue?

>Sister so and so brought a visitor who has family members who have 
>been killed by said gang.  This visitor sees someone wearing these 
>color socks and being slightly off balance she flips out.  The visitor 
>really wants to come to church but refuses because of her fear.  
>Pastor so and so then asks the church to kindly not wear color A socks 
>so the visitor can come and feel comfortable and as long as he is at 
>it says that it would be good to refrain from those color socks 
>because too many people associate it with that gang which has 
>permeated the area.

The situation I heard about made the color of socks a test of fellowship,
along the lines of being a sin, not out of consideration for such an
extreme case.

>Now, a different scenario.  Pastor Lunatic says yesterday he heard a 
>voice from heaven. AAOOOOMM. He is the most spiritual person who ever 
>walked the face of the globe.  You can tell because God speaks to him 
>about everthing.  The pews ( they must not be padded because people 
>may get too comfortable).  The lightbulbs ( they must be 40 watts) God 
>told him. And NOW!!! Da-Da-DUM!!!!! The color of your socks!!!  Pastor 
>Lunatic says NO socks but white because only the PURE will inherit the 
>earth and white socks denote purity!! All others from any church both 
>far and near will go to hell because THEY wear BLACK socks straight 
>from the pits of hell SHOWING their uncleaness!!
>
>Okay, nuff said about that.
>
>Now, if I was going to the first church, I would obey the pastor and 
>see a good reason for it.  

And if that same lady also freaked out at anything else, the Church
should mandate it as a STANDARD to the point that it was a test of
fellowship?

>If I was going to the second, what would I do?  Obey the pastor.  
>Why?  Because there are people who REALLY BELIEVE what he 
>says!!  

And BINGO; you have stated the bottom line reason why I have such a
problem with things like this.  The Pastor SHOULD have this reaction;
people SHOULD believe him, but he should NOT attempt to throw spiritually
worthless bits out like this as some kind of test of his authority (else
you are a rebellious saint).  Let me ask you this; if a saint showed up
in the "bad color socks" should that person be removed as, say, a Sunday
School teacher?

>If I had to continue going to this church ( and sometimes God requires 
>this) I would be on a mission to change it.   This is how I would do it:
 

This at least makes me know that you are at least serious about it, since
continuing to add burdens such as these has NO POSITIVE effect on a
congregation, except to foster a spirit of exclusivity or external
holiness.

>I would obey because those who think the pastor was right could 
>not be made free if they saw me as a rebel

Then this is a mistake of the Pastor.  I believe the Pastor should do
like Paul did and explain; "God said this, and this Church observes that
commandment.  I personally, also do this as well, but that's just my own
opinion and not mandatory from God.  

>( they would blow off anything I said). Then, when I got the go ahead 
>from God ( the voice from heaven) I would go and talk to him about it. 
> Of course, Pastor Lunatic is so spiritual *I* certainly couldn't tell 
>*him* anything.  I would bide my time.  I would do little things to 
>try to free the people that would ruffle everybody's feathers but it 
>would be right and without rebellion and thereby no one could find 
>fault with it. There is a difference between people finding fault with 
>you when you are wrong and them finding fault when you are right. If 
>you are right you will have God's backing and when the doors open 
>spiritually it is awesome.  All the work you did will come to 
>fruition.  But a person can only do this by walking very close to God. 
> And you will make mistakes, but not out of rebellion.

Note that in your scenario, Pastor Lunatic would declare you a rebel,
regardless of your intent or rightful actions, and if he has that kind of
power that he can make people believe what color of garment is on their
feet will prevent them from going to Heaven, then that man has built up a
local dynasty that is OUTSIDE of scriptural rights for a Pastor.

>Admittedly, this is a very hard road to travel.  " For what glory is 
>it, if when ye be buffeted for your faults ye take it patiently? but 
>if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is 
>acceptible with God." 1 Peter 2:20

Believe me, I am not attempting to

>Now, if the thing is real bad, like a doctrinal thing, it should be 
>dealt with accordingly. 

What if it is a direct and immediate command from the pastor, he says;
"get on the phone and do such and such right now"?  What he has commanded
is wrong.  

>( Like taking it to the district board.)  But often, the things that
hurt 
>people the most are things like you described that the district 
>board and the church will not deal with.

Because we have set Pastors up on an unreachable pedestal.  This is a far
cry from what I read about the Apostles.  I don't see them setting up
little kingdoms or dynasties with their families.  I see them presenting
the Word of God and helping the Church grow, not establishing their
personal habits as Biblical Doctrine. 

>>Surely you would recognize that SOME Pastors consider any type of 
>>questioning as rebellious...
>
>Right, but I'm talking about rebellion toward God and not man.  There 
>comes a time when we have to care about what God thinks more than what 
>men think.

I would agree.

>>So if we're wronged by the Pastor then we have to watch out so that 
>we don't hurt his feelings?
>
>If we are wronged we have to make sure that we are right regardless of 
>what someone else does. We are not talking about the pastors feelings. 
> If a pastor doesn't care about your feelings I wouldn't care too much 
>about his as long as you are completely right and not rebellious in 
>any way.

If you obey the directives of the Bible (first go to him who wronged you
privately, etc.) and you do not go with a wrong attitude (which I believe
means a lot to God) then what else is expected of you?  

>>Then try to prove me wrong.  Tell me SPECIFICALLY what risk was 
>>involved when television first came out.
>
>I think the men who made this decision discerned the direction it 
>would go.  People say they control it, but I wonder how many actually 
>succeed.

Yet was it a Word from the Lord that said this or their imaginations? 
Howard Stern is on the radio these days; why doesn't the UPC condemn it?

>>I also know that at that same time, RADIO had soap operas on them.
>>
>>So, why not speak out against RADIO?
> 
>As I previously stated, radio is not as powerful a medium.
>
>Lynne Yohnk

My point was that at the time this decision to ban televisions was made,
RADIO had soap operas on it and I can't imagine them condoning soap
operas, so why didn't they condemn the use of radio at the same time?  

The fact is that television was innocent at the time they turned their
back on it, radio wasn't.  There is a double standard at work here.  I
personally believe that the Devil WANTS God's people to turn their back
on as many things as they can so that he can have more control over them.

Jerry Welch
ICQ: 18489712
www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/2810/

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