Pastors Leading the flock???)

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In a message dated 9/15/98 11:11:40 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
tlwitness@juno.com writes:

Pastor Fitzgerel (then)
<< >For instance, this Pastoral authority subject that you mention, I have 
 >never been in a situation where the Pastor abuse his authority, 
 
Jerry Welch
 If you were in such a situation, what WOULD you do?  The Bible says that
 if a brother wrongs you, you are to go to him privately.  Would you do
 that, or would you "exempt" him because he was a Pastor?

Pastor Fitzgerel 
	If I didn't understand something the Pastor's I've been under would always
explain them to me

Pastor Fitzgerel(then)
 >so I have trouble seeing it from that disadvantage, 
 
Jerry Welch 
Then take a moment and thank the Lord.
 
Pastor Fitzgerel(then)
 >but rather I see it from a position that God has put that individual 
 >in my life to feed me with knowledge and understanding
 >to equip me for the task of living for God.
 
Jerry Welch
 Then really, you CAN understand how bad it feels when someone who is like
 a parent to you personally abuses that authority.
 
Pastor Fitzgerel
Anytime a move is apparent, and I might need to change churches, I wouldn't
move to a city where the Pastor was on a completely different wave link from
myself.

Pastor Fitzgerel(then)
 > Also to shepherd me, and  if necessary to reprove, rebuke and exhort
 with all with all 
 >long-suffering and doctrine. 

Jerry Welch 
 Not with personal convictions, though, right?  Let me ask you this: if a
 Pastor mandates a personal conviction of his as a Church standard, why
 don't we have the right to ask him to live up to our personal convictions
 as well?
 
Pastor Fitzgerel
	I guess Bro. because of the same reason you couldn't make your parents in the
flesh do things your way, just because you had to do some things their way.
God holds them responsible and with that responsibility comes some authority
and we have to respect that, because that is God's plan.

Jerry Welch
 That is the entirety of my problem here; it is an unscriptural elevation
 of a Pastor to put him above the possibility of being wrong.  And the
 teaching of PERSONAL CONVICTIONS as Doctrine is clearly out of order. 
 Personal convictions are just THAT; personal, because they are tailored
 for a unique individual; they are all but worthless to force others to
 follow them.  Paul didn't say follow me as I follow my personal
 convictions (which I am sure he had; and that is a part of Paul's
 personal walk with Jesus), but he said "follow me as I follow Christ."
 
Pastor Fitzgerel
	I believe that God deals with  a Pastor along the lines of standards with the
Church in mind. And any God fearing Pastor will be sensitive to that, but
anybody that thinks that a Pastor can't be wrong or make mistakes, well lets
just say their porch light is on, but nobody home.  Just because some carry it
to far, does not mean that it is wrong for a Pastor to preach standards to the
Church that God has put him over.  
	I don't know your situation Bro. Jerry, but if you are a parent you will find
out real fast that parents make mistakes.  And their are some really stupid
parents out there, that make the role of parenting look like a real sick joke.
But parents set boundaries for their children to operate within, because they
will get into trouble without these standards or boundaries. Mature adults
don't need these social and domestic boundaries, because they learned them in
their youth and live their already. Mature saints want be offended when a
Pastor teaches against certain things, recognizing that their are new ones
coming up, that need that teaching so that they want get into trouble
unnecessarily.  What's sad is when we become adults in the Lord and still
don't recognize the need for these safe guards that protect us from our base
nature of sin?

Jerry Welch
 IOW, as long as a Pastor is IN the Word, they are within their scriptural
 boundaries of authority, but once they start adding (or God help us
 subtracting) from the Word of God, there is no scriptural authority in
 their actions.
 I have heard many times, "If he is wrong, God will take care of it" but I
 am sure that if a saint were to get out of line, a Pastor wouldn't just
 ignore it and say that he wouldn't do anything about it; let God handle
 it."

Pastor Fitzgerel(then) 
 > That doesn't mean that there hasn't been some mistakes over 
 >the years,
 
Jerry Welch
 That have not only hurt saints, but all but driven some of them out.  I
 can quote case after case of Pastoral indifference to the exercise of
 their authority and, yes, I know, no one can MAKE you sin, but if they
 are pushing unscripturally at people, they are accomplices.  
 
Pastor Fitzgerel
	Yes, no doubt there are some, but stop and think of all the ones that are
saved as the result of the Pastor's actions and burden.  Its easy to criticize
Bro. Jerry when we are hurt.  I had someone a few years ago get all upset with
a decision that I had made regarding someone else, and almost quit coming to
Church.  It wasn't really none of their business, except they tried to make it
their business and I had to be indifferent to their feelings.  I couldn't
disclose personal information to them about someone else, just because they
choice to buy into somebody else situation.  And really they have never
recovered from the spirit that attached itself to them and doesn't come to
church now at all.  And I am sure they would say, that they didn't approve of
my decision in the matter is the reason that they quit coming.

Pastor Fitzgerel(then)
 >but I am much better off as the result of submitting to a 
 >Pastor, than fighting him and being in contention with him.
 
Jerry Welch
 To qualify my position, I don't believe that people should be fighting
 Pastors or being in contention just to be argumentative.  Also, I
 >>>DO<<< believe in the office of Pastor.  I just question the
 extra-Biblical burdens (Acts 15:28,29) that are loaded on to saints.
 
Pastor Fitzgerel
	When God told Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree and Adam told Eve not
to touch the tree, do you think that Adam was just trying to bully Eve around
or that maybe he was just trying to help make sure that she kept herself out
of position to eat of the fruit of the tree.  Its would be hard to eat of the
tree and not touch it, so Adam didn't contradict the command of God's word,
even though the Bible initially didn't say to Adam that he couldn't touch it
Not touching the tree was in agreeance with sound doctrine as for as the
command went.

Pastor Fitzgerel(then)
 >Also, this power structure and ranking system that you alluded to 
 >above, I am sorry I can't take any credit for it at all.  I am as firm
 in my 
 >convictions that it is in the Word of God and ordained of God, and 
 >besides all of that it has never hurt me yet.
 
 But you do not deny that it has not hurt anyone, do you?  And it is not
 GOD'S power structure at fault; it is the additional power that men have
 grabbed for themselves.  Preach the Word and you are IN the Word.  Preach
 outside the Word and there is no guarantee.  I just cringe anytime I hear
 a near Papal description of a Pastor.  It's not healthy for either the
 Pastor, OR the Saint and it's certainly not scriptural.
 
Pastor Fitzgerel
	I guess it could be stretched that maybe if Adam had just stuck with the
command that maybe Eve would not have eaten of the tree. Maybe his good
intentions only served as a stumbling block for his good wife.  If it doesn't
do violence to the command than it is in the word, as in agreeance with the
word.

Pastor Fitzgerel(then)
 >Besides I had rather stand before God with my regard
 >for my Pastor, than trade places with anyone that has had bad 
 >experiences with the gift that God has put into their lives.  
 
Jerry Welch
 Just be glad and thank God.  I know of a lot of souls outside of Church
 who shouldn't be there.
 
Pastor Fitzgerel
	Its not His will for any to perish, but that all would come to repentance.

Pastor Fitzgerel(then)
 >But if you would like to address the responsible party for the 
 >power structure and ranking system, what ever
 >that is, He is just a prayer away.  God Bless
 >
 Jerry Welch 
 I do not believe that God has called, ordained or promotes Pastors to
 preach their personal convictions, much less promote them as equally as
 they do Doctrine that is contained in the Bible.  By making any such
 claim to scriptural authority, they place themselves on a Pedestal too
 high for them to have any place in.
 
 Pastor Fitzgerel
	I personally don't think its necessary to promote them equally as we do the
fundamental doctrine.  But if they are not important, why do you get so upset
with something that is not important. It must be pretty important to you and
to some its more important than being saved.  Sad isn't it.

God Bless You
Pastor Fitzgerel