A Shame?

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On Fri, 11 Sep 1998 22:33:58 -0500 tlwitness@juno.com (Jerry Welch)
writes:

>I would also ask you that if you believe that the Bible is telling us 
>to BLINDLY OBEY IN EVERY SITUATION.  I would think that you do not 
>believe that, so you give room for DISOBEYING the Pastor.  Our 
>differences are merely in where that line is.  

Yes, you are correct in this assessment.

>And I believe that they have to be careful about what they say because 
>of the INFLUENCE that their position naturally has.

This is exactly what I have been saying.

>>Again Heb 13:17 " As they that must give account."
>
>If it is TOTALLY their responsibility, then do they go to Hell if a 
>saint falls?  Of course not.

It is totally their responsibility to lead.  It is totally the
responsibility of the saints to follow.

>But I believe that they will have blood on their hands for certain 
>acts that they do.
>
>>Ezekiel 3:17,18 " Son of man, I have made thee a watchman over the 
>>house of Israel: therefore hear the word at thy mouth and give them 
>>warning from me. When I say unto the wicked "Thou shalt surely die"; 
>>and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from 
>
>>his wicked way, to save his life;  the same wicked man will die in 
>his 
>>iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."
>
>You are comparing THIS to preaching personal convictions as DOCTRINE?

You yourself said they will have "blood on their hands".  Where are you
getting this idea? Heb 13:17 says." They will watch for your souls".  It
does not specifically say "watchmen", but they are men that watch.  It
says "As they that must give account". Like the verse I quoted above that
says God will require the blood at the watchman's hand if he fails to
warn the wicked. I do feel it is a fair comparison. ( If MY PEOPLE which
are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and TURN FROM THEIR
WICKED WAYS...)


>So while you recognize the damage that the promoting of such Pastoral 
>authority causes, it is not to be challenged or even questioned?

I think the statements I have made indicate that I would challenge
something that I felt was necessary to challenge.

>Do you believe that it is God's Will that Pastors abuse saints? 

Do you believe it is God's will for husbands to abuse wives?

>If not, then do you believe it is safe to say that saints are not to 
>obey abusive instructions?

If not, do you believe it is safe to say that wives are not to allow
themselves to be abused? ( If my husband beat me I would be out the door.
 I would not divorce him, however, unless he committed adultery. I would
tell him that it is HIS choice whether I stay or leave by the way he
treats me.  I couldn't help his choice one way or the other.) There are
scriptural guidelines for obedience which are not so easily seen when
someone is in an abusive situation of any type.  This is why I stress the
voice from heaven.  On your knees is where the answers are.

>>Pastors also should consider saints feelings.)
>
>Amen!  Of course I would remind you that the husband has BIBLICAL 
>authority over the wife, while the Pastor has LIMITED authority over a 
>saint.  

A husband also has limited authority.  Do you realize how difficult it is
for a wife to submit to her husband when he is wrong?  She can't just
leave him like you can leave a church. ( Off the subject, but good
material anyway.)

>Point blank: Do you believe that local Church standards are a SIN 
>before God?

Not always.  But rebellion is.

> How many saints need to be 
>abused to the point of backsliding or leaving to another Church before 
>leadership realizes that THEIR word is not GOD'S word? 

I don't think anyone can be made to backslide.  If people go to another
church, maybe then someone will have to think about why.
But for the message to be sent, and I cannot state this strong enough: 
If you want to help a pastor to see any type of error, you must not be
any form of rebellious!  Even if the pastor is wrong, if you are wrong in
your attempts to change the situation in any form, he will only see your
wrong. This does not mean if you are completely right he will see his
error but there is a much better chance of it.  You must be impeccable. (
Remember about the mote in the eye and the beam in the eye.  The Lord
said first take the beam out of your own eye and then you will see
clearly to help get the mote out of your brothers eye.)

How do I know these things, Brother?  Well, I have a little experience. 
I didn't just get saved and everything was peachy from there on out.

>There was virtually NO risk when the technology first appeared.  

This is only your opinion.
  
 You have an opinion about most other things; why not 
>this one?  I can tell that you don't WANT to answer me, but for the 
>sake of this discussion, surely you realize that a Church that doesn't 
>allow people to leave is highly questionable. 

Yes, I have an opinion.  But my opinion doesn't make one bit of
difference here.  What God's opinion is is what you need.  If I gave you
my opinion, I would have to deal with God who might not agree with me.

> >Sure.  I don't believe God will pronounce judgement on someone who 
>is  >innocently following.  I do think, however, in his mercy, he will 
>help  >open their eyes. 

  As He opened mine.  Selah.

And mine, Brother, and mine.

Lynne Yohnk  

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