A Shame?

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On Mon, 14 Sep 1998 10:59:55 -0500 lyohnk@juno.com (Lynne A. Yohnk)
writes:

>T.V. is much the same thing.  We have to see alot of immorality, but 
>why bring it into your house? T.V. preaches a lifestyle that many do 
>not know is wrong.  What some deem to be harmless is actually harmful. 
> Often, the pastor can see it and also can see the effect it is having 
>on people when the people themselves cannot see it.

But what does that have to do with Pentecostal Pastors making a decision
that Television was "evil" back in the 1940's?

>>>The difference between pastors and saints is authority.  
>>
>>Specifically, what BIBLICAL (that means that I would like Chapter and 
>>Verse showing each claim) authority is given a Pastor?
>
>1 Tim. 4:11 " These things command and teach."  The ministry is told 
>to command certain things. This in itself would denote authority.

Note that they are being told to "command and teach" DOCTRINE, not
personal convictions.  I would dare say that I do not recall ever reading
a scripture where a Teacher/Pastor/Teacher, whatever is commanded to
preach their own personal convictions, do you?

>1 Cor. 16:16 " That ye submit yoursleves unto such, and to every one 
>that helpeth with us and laboureth."

But if you are attempting to use that in context with the Doctrine vs
Standard debate, that would imply that we are to be under the personal
convictions of "EVERY ONE that helpeth with us and laboureth".  I'm sure
that is not what you mean, is it?

>And of course the (in)famous Heb. 13:17 " Obey them that have the rule 
>over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as 
>they that must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with 
>grief for that is unprofitable for you."  Not to be confused with Heb 
>13:7 which says " Remember them which have the rule over you, who have 
>spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the 
>end of their conversation." ( Which is also a good scripture.)

I would also ask you that if you believe that the Bible is telling us to
BLINDLY OBEY IN EVERY SITUATION.  I would think that you do not believe
that, so you give room for DISOBEYING the Pastor.  Our differences are
merely in where that line is.  

My line is that if he is outside the Word, we SHOULD have the right to
make choices without "falling out" of good standing.  That is unfair, to
use the pulpit to punish those who do not fit your personal convictions.

>Now, if pastors have no authority and are not the ones ruling over 
>you, then why do they have to be careful about what they say?  

I would say first and foremost that I believe that as long as they are IN
THE WORD, they have authority.  OUTSIDE THE WORD, as with personal
convictions, etc. I do NOT believe they have authority, since I do not
know of a scripture that gives them such authority.  If you know of such
a scripture, please show it to me.

If they DID have that authority, they could, like a Church I recently
heard about, tell their members that if you wear certain colors of socks
that you are going to Hell.  No offense, but that is unscriptural and
should not be preached from any Christian pulpit.

And I believe that they have to be careful about what they say because of
the INFLUENCE that their position naturally has.

>>I disagree.  The Bible CLEARLY says "The head of the woman is man; 
>>the head of man is Christ".  The head of man is NOT the Pastor.  The 
>>Pastor is an example and a guide, a minister to the saints. 
>
>This is true to some extent 

How is it not TOTALLY true?  If it is not totally true, then show me
where it says "the head of man is the Pastor" or "there are TWO mediators
between God and man, the Pastor who then answers to Christ Jesus".  

>as it is YOUR responsibility to lead your family.  But there are people 
>over you.  If you have a boss he is over you.  Heb 13:17 is speaking of 
>a spiritual leader because spiritual leaders watch for your soul.  It 
>tells you to submit to these spiritual leaders.

Without limitation or even question?  I don't think that even you would
agree to that, else we justify the Pope, Jim Jones and any other Pastor
who deliberately abuses the authority that is given to him.

>>I disagree.  Again, the Bible doesn't say that the head of the man is 
>>the Pastor; it specifically says the head of man is Christ.  Also, 
>>the Bible says that there is ONE mediator between man and God, and that

>>is the man Christ Jesus, not the Pastor.  I believe Pastors are called 
>to be guides, ministers and examples (1 Timothy 4:12, 1 Peter 5:3, 
>>Phillipians 3:19) and we are to follow them AS THEY FOLLOW CHRIST. 
>
>Again Heb 13:17 " As they that must give account."

If it is TOTALLY their responsibility, then do they go to Hell if a saint
falls?  Of course not.

But I believe that they will have blood on their hands for certain acts
that they do.

>Ezekiel 3:17,18 " Son of man, I have made thee a watchman over the 
>house of Israel: therefore hear the word at thy mouth and give them 
>warning from me. When I say unto the wicked "Thou shalt surely die"; 
>and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from 
>his wicked way, to save his life;  the same wicked man will die in his 
>iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand."

You are comparing THIS to preaching personal convictions as DOCTRINE?

>>Bottom line: By promoting localized standards to the point where they 
>>influence either position in the Church or the congregation's 
>>attitude toward someone (if they were prayed up, they wouldn't do
so-and-so), 
>>it is wrong.  
>>Such a stand will necessarily ALSO promote prejudicial treatment of 
>>members who act outside of this standard, would easily be considered 
>>members in good standing, branding them as "rebellious", "uncaring 
>>for the man of God", "nearly backslidden", etc., thus harming their
walk 
>>with God.
>
>Yes, but it is the pastor who is held accountable to God for these 
>things, not you. 

So while you recognize the damage that the promoting of such Pastoral
authority causes, it is not to be challenged or even questioned?

The POPE has this type of authority; but BIBLICAL leadership does not.

>I respect your desire to try and make things better, 
>but we must realize that some things we must leave in God's hands.

That is my entire POINT!  That PASTORS need to realize that some things
must be left in God's hands.

Do you believe that it is God's Will that Pastors abuse saints?  

If not, then do you believe it is safe to say that saints are not to obey
abusive instructions?

>When a decision in your family is made why don't you submit to your 
>wife?  It is the God given authority that we must respect. 

Again, you are misrepresenting the authority of a Pastor.  There is CLEAR
Biblical authority given to a husband over a wife.  There is at best
LIMITED authority of a Pastor over a saint.

>When you have to decide to make a job change and your wife disagrees 
>but you feel God wants you to go anyway do you go?  Your wife could 
>claim that was awfully convenient to you.  She could charge you with 
>only caring about yourself.  Some wives, claiming this are right. That 
>doesn't make all husbands so selfish.  Are you seeing the 
>similarities? ( Of course, all husbands should seriously consider 
>their wives feelings in everything. 

I agree, but even though I have BIBLICAL authority as HEAD of my wife, I
don't treat her the way some Pastors treat their congregation.

>Pastors also should consider saints feelings.)

Amen!  Of course I would remind you that the husband has BIBLICAL
authority over the wife, while the Pastor has LIMITED authority over a
saint.  

Let's take that SAME example; I was fired from my job as News Director
because I refused to cover up something on the air.  God literally opened
a door of opportunity where I could buy a business in another town.  My
Pastor told me that I should take as many burger flipping jobs as was
necessary to stay in that town (of  around 5,000).

Should I stay?  Of course not.  He doesn't have authority over me in that
scenario to COMMAND that I stay.

And while I do not COMMAND my wife, I >>>DO<<< have the Biblical
authority to take her with me in a move even if she doesn't agree with
it.

>  I can almost understand it, really.  The Pastor is used to 
>>listening to God and then repeating it to the congregation as "Thus 
>>saith the Lord", but the Pastor needs to make sure he knows what God 
>>is telling him to tell the congregation and what God is just telling 
>>him!
>
>Certainly.

Then you realize that sometimes, perhaps it is just that Pastors can't
differentiate what God is telling THEM as opposed to what God is telling
them to tell OTHERS.

>>Paul says in Acts Chapter 15:
>>
>>vs 28 : "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay on 
>>you NO GREATER BURDENS THAN THESE NECESSARY THINGS
>>
>>He recognized that anything that they (leadership) add is a burden to 
>>>the saints.
>
>And then he went on to write a bunch of other books.

Those books being influenced by GOD.  I again CANNOT in any serious tone
compare the writings of Paul to the Churches to contemporary attempts to
tell people they will go to Hell if they have the wrong color socks.

Note that PAUL understood the difference.  Several times he said that
such and such was his opinion and not mandatory.  We were not delivered
from the Law of God to be delivered into the Law of a Man, which changes
if we go to another Church, or even if we fellowship another Church
(since we would then be bound under THAT man's Law)

Point blank: Do you believe that local Church standards are a SIN before
God?

>No, not always.  Some people are very dependent.

And the Pastor should EVEN MORE SO be careful about what he adds to these
people, because if they get damaged, 
those are the ones who usually give up on God.  And is it really worth it
to implement the Pastor's personal convictions Churchwide if it causes
the harm of even ONE saint?

>>And there is NEVER an apology for the people who have been damaged by 
>>the standard before it changed.
>
>That's unfortunate.  It is possible the damage done was not realized, 
>but they did change!!

The change IS good, I agree, but the memories of those who were driven
from the pews give little comfort.

Really, does it have to come to that?  How many saints need to be abused
to the point of backsliding or leaving to another Church before
leadership realizes that THEIR word is not GOD'S word?  And I am not
speaking that in a bad attitude, please believe me, but what good is
preaching personal feelings when the pulpit is for the Word of God unto
edification of the Church?

>>So it would have been a more powerful medium to use for God!  We're 
>>looking at it backwards!  Would we stay with the horse and buggy 
>>because it is LESS powerful than a car?  Or, if the goal is travel, 
>>shouldn't we USE the most powerful medium? 
>
>We are talking about benefit vs. risk here. Obviously, many see the 
>risk being stronger than the benefit.

There was virtually NO risk when the technology first appeared.  It was
OUR mistake that we chose to put our head in the sand on this one and
that is at least partially to blame about where it is.
 
>>Do you see my point?  I can only thank God that computers aren't 
>>frowned on (although I know of some people who teach against them 
>>because they are "the beast" or they have crystals in them, so they 
>>must be related to the New Age movement)
>
>Well, I've never heard those ones.:  ) 

My response is to ask them if they listen to a radio.  They of course say
yes.  I then tell them that there is a crystal in every radio.  They
usually don't believe me.

>IF vouchers get passed.

If the Lord tarries, they will.  Vouchers are one of those "shoe-in"
issues that almost 90% of people of every walk support, regardless of
sex, race, and both Democrat and Republican voters almost overwhelmingly
approve of it.

>>>I think a saint should obey and seek God. A saint should obey the 
>>>pastor.  
>>
>>Where is the line that a saint should NOT obey a Pastor outside of 
>God literally speaking from Heaven?  
>
>Why would you ask this outside of God literally speaking from heaven?  

Because I don't believe the only time that a saint can disobey a Pastor
has to be limited by God literally speaking from heaven.

>Prayer closets are exactly what is needed here.  

Agreed, on BOTH the part of the Pastor to realize how heavy additional
burdens are to the saints and to the saints to know what the right thing
to do is.

>>Did you read my example where I was fired from my job (for refusing 
>to do something wrong), and God opened a door to buy a business in 
>>another town?  I was told by my Pastor that I should find as many 
>>burger flipping jobs as I can in order to stay there.  The ONLY two 
>>people I know that were given an official "Godspeed" send off were 
>>the Pastor's son and daughter.  
>>
>>Should I have obeyed?
>
>This is between you and God.  I wouldn't venture to guess.  I wasn't 
>there.  Even if I was I probably wouldn't know.

You have an opinion about most other things; why not this one?  I can
tell that you don't WANT to answer me, but for the sake of this
discussion, surely you realize that a Church that doesn't allow people to
leave is highly questionable.  What usually happens is one Sunday all of
a sudden someone won't be there and when you ask about it, everyone gets
real quiet and serious.  You think they've backslidden, but one day,
you'll be visiting the other city and the saint will greet you with a
hearty "Praise the Lord" and that they still are in Church but now go to
the Church in the city they live in.

>Sure.  I don't believe God will pronounce judgement on someone who is 
>innocently following.  I do think, however, in his mercy, he will help 
>open their eyes.
>
>Lynne Yohnk

As He opened mine.

Selah.

Jerry Welch
ICQ: 18489712
www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/2810/

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