A Shame?

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OK

I just want to state that I am not against pastoral authority, simply
authority which goes beyond biblical limitations for leadership. A case in
point is the presidential thing. The president has authority. That authority
has been laid out. The question now isn't whether he has authority, but
whether he abused it. (Personally I think this question is already
answered). My part of this discussion is not whether church leadership has
authority, but what the limits to that authority are and what relationship
exists between leadership and church members because of that authority.

I'd like to discuss a couple of points in this message, keeping in mind the
above statement. I'm not knocking authority, just trying to put it in its
perspective.

> >Specifically, what BIBLICAL (that means that I would like Chapter and
> >Verse showing each claim) authority is given a Pastor?
>
> 1 Tim. 4:11 " These things command and teach."  The ministry is told to
> command certain things. This in itself would denote authority.

This verse is strightforward and clear. Paul lays out specific items to
command and teach. So, by submitting to Paul's authority and
commanding/teaching these things, Timothy has authority. This diesn't mean
that Timothy has authority to teach or command apart from this list of
topics, because of his "authority". The story of the centurion's servant is
applicable here. He told Jesus he (the centurion) was a man under authority.
Therefore he could command others. He understood authority. Likewise Paul
said "follow me as I follow Christ". Paul understood that his submission to
the authority of Christ was what gave him authority as a leader To step
outside the area of authority given by Christ would remove that authority.
>
> 1 Cor. 16:16 " That ye submit yoursleves unto such, and to every one that
> helpeth with us and laboureth."
>
> And of course the (in)famous Heb. 13:17 " Obey them that have the rule
> over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they
> that must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief
> for that is unprofitable for you."  Not to be confused with Heb 13:7
> which says " Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken
> unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of
> their conversation." ( Which is also a good scripture.)
>
> Now, if pastors have no authority and are not the ones ruling over you,
> then why do they have to be careful about what they say?  By the very
> fact that pastors have power to help or hurt by what they do proves the
> very fact that they do have authority.
>
This is a non-sequitor(doesn't necessarily follow) I can help or hurt
another person by what I say or do. I do it at work all the time (help them
that is). I give advice, provide information, etc. This doesn't mean that I
have any authority over them. I have authority over some, others have
authority over me, and I am equal with others. One saint can bless another
saint by raying for them or hurt them by gossipping. This doesn't mean one
has authority over another. Note the phrase "whose faith follow" in vs 7. We
are to follow them as they are living out the Christian faith. They are not
free to command obedience beyond that.

(snip)
> >  Likewise, the responsibility
> >>for saints is on the pastors shoulders.
> >
> >I disagree.  Again, the Bible doesn't say that the head of the man is
> >the Pastor; it specifically says the head of man is Christ.  Also, the
> >Bible says that there is ONE mediator between man and God, and that is
> >the man Christ Jesus, not the Pastor.  I believe Pastors are called to
> >be guides, ministers and examples (1 Timothy 4:12, 1 Peter 5:3,
> >Phillipians 3:19) and we are to follow them AS THEY FOLLOW CHRIST.
>
> Again Heb 13:17 " As they that must give account."
>
They must give account for what they have done, for their teaching and
whether it was in line with the word, for their actions and whether they
were Christlike. Not for your response, or your actions, since you are a
free moral agent. It is better if you can be in harmony with those in
leadership, since their task will be made easier, but this always is
qualified by their following Christ.

> Ezekiel 3:17,18 " Son of man, I have made thee a watchman over the house
> of Israel: therefore hear the word at thy mouth and give them warning
> from me. When I say unto the wicked "Thou shalt surely die"; and thou
> givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked
> way, to save his life;  the same wicked man will die in his iniquity; but
> his blood will I require at thine hand."
>
This verse was spoken to a specific individual at a certain time. No new
testament writer quotes from it as an example of pastoral authority. We must
not assume that because some have applied it to themselves and their
ministry, that it actually applies. Besides, the message is to the "wicked",
surely one has a "strange" view of the church if you identify it with the
wicked. Perhaps an evangelist could use this verse to describe his ministry
to the lost, but the church is not "the wicked".
(snip)
> >
> >Then why can't the Pastor ALSO submit to ALL of the congregation's
> >personal convictions?
>
> When a decision in your family is made why don't you submit to your wife?
>  It is the God given authority that we must respect.
>
This is absolutely correct. It is only when some try to go beyond that
authority that problems occur. There are limits to a man's authority over
his wife. For example, as an extreme example, he cannot tell his wife to
murder someone, and expect her to do it. There is a limit. Likewise, I have
seen examples where ministers have used their "authority" to get others to
join MLM's, make others shop at stores owned by their relatives, do free
work for them, all in the name of "God said". Paul never said "you have to
buy my tents cause I'm the man of God." These things happen today because we
have alowed the bounds of authority laid down in the word to be stretched
beyond what the word says. I believe a minister can have a word from God for
someone, its happened to me several times. But God wants us to weigh that
word, look at the fruit of the man speaking it, and what He has told us
Himself.

Well, that's all I want to say. I hope this is a clear explanation of my
thoughts on the subject.

Frank Vandenburg