A Shame?

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On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 01:47:56 -0500 tlwitness@juno.com (Jerry Welch)
writes:

>But do we ABSTAIN from everything that has the potential of feeding 
>the lust of the eyes?  Do we abstain from going to a mall, or out in 
>public where people can be scantilly dressed or cussing, etc.?  

" I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that
thou shouldest keep them from the evil." John 17:15 

We have to live in this world and there are some things we cannot
control, like other people dressing immodestly.  But there is a
difference between, say, going to the store and seeing immodesty and
going to the beach.  In one instance you can't help it.  In the other you
know what you're getting into.

T.V. is much the same thing.  We have to see alot of immorality, but why
bring it into your house? T.V. preaches a lifestyle that many do not know
is wrong.  What some deem to be harmless is actually harmful.  Often, the
pastor can see it and also can see the effect it is having on people when
the people themselves cannot see it.

>>Yes, so God used those experiences to make you a better person.
>
>Yes, although I don't believe God caused any of them.  
>
>I believe that in His mercy, He made the best of a bad situation.

I would agree with that. " For there also must be heresies among you that
they which are approved may be made manifest among you." 1 Cor. 11:19 
This is not to say that God wants bad things to happen, but that
sometimes he uses them to make us better people.  This doesn't mean that
those people that God used to make us better people are necessarily bad
themselves.  Sometimes people hurt others without knowing it.

>>The difference between pastors and saints is authority.  
>
>Specifically, what BIBLICAL (that means that I would like Chapter and 
>Verse showing each claim) authority is given a Pastor?

1 Tim. 4:11 " These things command and teach."  The ministry is told to
command certain things. This in itself would denote authority.

1 Cor. 16:16 " That ye submit yoursleves unto such, and to every one that
helpeth with us and laboureth."

And of course the (in)famous Heb. 13:17 " Obey them that have the rule
over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they
that must give account, that they may do it with joy and not with grief
for that is unprofitable for you."  Not to be confused with Heb 13:7
which says " Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken
unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of
their conversation." ( Which is also a good scripture.)

Now, if pastors have no authority and are not the ones ruling over you,
then why do they have to be careful about what they say?  By the very
fact that pastors have power to help or hurt by what they do proves the
very fact that they do have authority.

>>It's like husbands and wives.  
>
>I disagree.  The Bible CLEARLY says "The head of the woman is man; the 
>head of man is Christ".  The head of man is NOT the Pastor.  The 
>Pastor is an example and a guide, a minister to the saints. 

This is true to some extent as it is YOUR responsibility to lead your
family.  But there are people over you.  If you have a boss he is over
you.  Heb 13:17 is speaking of a spiritual leader because spiritual
leaders watch for your soul.  It tells you to submit to these spiritual
leaders.

>  Likewise, the responsibility 
>>for saints is on the pastors shoulders.
>
>I disagree.  Again, the Bible doesn't say that the head of the man is 
>the Pastor; it specifically says the head of man is Christ.  Also, the 
>Bible says that there is ONE mediator between man and God, and that is 
>the man Christ Jesus, not the Pastor.  I believe Pastors are called to 
>be guides, ministers and examples (1 Timothy 4:12, 1 Peter 5:3, 
>Phillipians 3:19) and we are to follow them AS THEY FOLLOW CHRIST. 

Again Heb 13:17 " As they that must give account."

Ezekiel 3:17,18 " Son of man, I have made thee a watchman over the house
of Israel: therefore hear the word at thy mouth and give them warning
from me. When I say unto the wicked "Thou shalt surely die"; and thou
givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked
way, to save his life;  the same wicked man will die in his iniquity; but
his blood will I require at thine hand."
 
>Bottom line: By promoting localized standards to the point where they 
>influence either position in the Church or the congregation's attitude 
>toward someone (if they were prayed up, they wouldn't do so-and-so), 
>it is wrong.  
>Such a stand will necessarily ALSO promote prejudicial treatment of 
>members who act outside of this standard, would easily be considered 
>members in good standing, branding them as "rebellious", "uncaring for 
>the man of God", "nearly backslidden", etc., thus harming their walk 
>with God.

Yes, but it is the pastor who is held accountable to God for these
things, not you. I respect your desire to try and make things better, but
we must realize that some things we must leave in God's hands.

>>The beautiful thing about submission is that when we see other 
>choices 
>>we *choose* to submit.  
>
>Then why can't the Pastor ALSO submit to ALL of the congregation's 
>personal convictions?

When a decision in your family is made why don't you submit to your wife?
 It is the God given authority that we must respect. 

>Do his personal convictions outweigh every other congregational 
>member's?

Does the final decisions in your family rest on you? Do you feel that
weight?  Are your decisions always right?

>>We recognize the God given authority and when 
>>we disagree we trust God ( not man) to work it out.  
>
>Kind of convenient for those in charge, is it not, to place such a 
>standard at a level that must be obeyed along with the Bible.  There 
>is no inconvenience to them at all, but there is to the ENTIRE 
>congregation.

When you have to decide to make a job change and your wife disagrees but
you feel God wants you to go anyway do you go?  Your wife could claim
that was awfully convenient to you.  She could charge you with only
caring about yourself.  Some wives, claiming this are right. That doesn't
make all husbands so selfish.  Are you seeing the similarities? ( Of
course, all husbands should seriously consider their wives feelings in
everything. Pastors also should consider saints feelings.)


  I can almost understand it, really.  The Pastor is used to 
>listening to God and then repeating it to the congregation as "Thus 
>saith the Lord", but the Pastor needs to make sure he knows what God 
>is telling him to tell the congregation and what God is just telling 
>him!

Certainly.

>Paul says in Acts Chapter 15:
>
>vs 28 : "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay on 
>you NO GREATER BURDENS THAN THESE NECESSARY THINGS
>
>He recognized that anything that they (leadership) add is a burden to 
>the saints.

And then he went on to write a bunch of other books.

>>Really, saints who follow blindly are hard on a man of God because he 
>
>>feels an extra weight.  It's easier when people are personally 
>>responsible.
>
>But that weight is a result when a man of God ASSUMES the authority to 
>place the additional weight there to begin with. 

No, not always.  Some people are very dependent.

>And there is NEVER an apology for the people who have been damaged by 
>the standard before it changed.

That's unfortunate.  It is possible the damage done was not realized, but
they did change!!


>So it would have been a more powerful medium to use for God!  We're 
>looking at it backwards!  Would we stay with the horse and buggy 
>because it is LESS powerful than a car?  Or, if the goal is travel, 
>shouldn't we USE the most powerful medium? 

We are talking about benefit vs. risk here. Obviously, many see the risk
being stronger than the benefit.
 
>>We can only compare to what we have.  
>
>Do you see my point?  I can only thank God that computers aren't 
>frowned on (although I know of some people who teach against them 
>because they are "the beast" or they have crystals in them, so they 
>must be related to the New Age movement)

Well, I've never heard those ones.:  ) 

>>For example:  Many apostolic children go to public 
>>schools.  Are the schools less wicked because of it?  How do we 
>>measure this?  I see them having dances, drugs, gangs etc.  They may 
>>not be any less wicked at all.  
>
>Then we'll have to compare that after vouchers get passed and wait to 
>see what schools are like when the apostolic children leave...because 
>the world is going to have some troubles after the Holy Ghost is 
>removed from it and it looks pretty bad right now!  It would be hard 
>to imagine how much WORSE it will be when His Presence is removed.

IF vouchers get passed.

>>I think a saint should obey and seek God. A saint should obey the 
>>pastor.  
>
>Where is the line that a saint should NOT obey a Pastor outside of God 
>literally speaking from Heaven?  

Why would you ask this outside of God literally speaking from heaven? 
Prayer closets are exactly what is needed here.  

>Did you read my example where I was fired from my job (for refusing to 
>do something wrong), and God opened a door to buy a business in 
>another town?  I was told by my Pastor that I should find as many 
>burger flipping jobs as I can in order to stay there.  The ONLY two 
>people I know that were given an official "Godspeed" send off were the 
>Pastor's son and daughter.  
>
>Should I have obeyed?

This is between you and God.  I wouldn't venture to guess.  I wasn't
there.  Even if I was I probably wouldn't know.

>I believe the younger prophet full well knew he shouldn't listen to 
>>the old prophet.  Do you really think God would have slain him with a 
>
>>lion if he was innocently following and had no knowledge?  I don't.

>The same goes with saints today, wouldn't you think?  
>

Sure.  I don't believe God will pronounce judgement on someone who is
innocently following.  I do think, however, in his mercy, he will help
open their eyes.

Lynne Yohnk

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