Pastors Leading the flock???)

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 Skip:
 The main contention I have with the "holiness standards" is
simple: they make no sense, follow no logic, and have minimal Biblical
basis. 
 
 Mike:
 There may be some "holiness standards" in some churches that don't make
sense, the "standards" in our church make perfect sense.  Let me give you a
couple of examples. 
  In our church we don't allow the boys to hold hands or kiss the girls until
they are married.  Does that make sense?  Were you ever a teenage boy Skip?
Do you now have a teenage daughter?  I do and it makes perfect sense to me.
We do not allow single couple dating until the age of sixteen.  Again, why put
kids in a situation were they have to battle the forces of nature? (their
flesh) 
 I know we have discussed this before and I don't really want to get into a
discussion of this matter but the programing on TV is destructive and not
constructive.  It is not conducive to living a holy life.  Can you argue with
that statement?  Do you think TV''s programing *is* conducive to living a holy
life?  Do you think TV *is* constructive? (spiritually)  This is a standard we
have at our church.  I do not believe (and it is not taught here) that TV
watching will send you to hell, however, it can't help you to remain
spiritually minded.  My bible teaches me "There is therefore now no
condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh,
but after the Spirit."  I don't want condemnation so I am going to try to
eschew evil and walk after the spirit. 
 You don't think these standards follow logic or make sense?  If they seem
illogical to you, I don't know if I can reach you.  I think (guess I may be
judging here) that it may be that it does make sense but you simply don't want
to give those little pleasures up.  Or maybe it is principle, "I can handle
it, I want it, so I am going to have it."  How about, "Ain't nobody goin' to
tell me what to do!"  I don't know were you are coming from on this but again
these standards *do* make sense.
 Along the same thought, the other day Bro.  Tim sarcastically wrote the
following,"The whole focus of the church would shift!  Instead of trying to
fill the pews at any cost to have the appearance of a huge following, we would
be more interested in the CONDITION of the few or many that filled them!" 
 Most of our standards are precisely for the reason Brother Tim mentioned, we
are "interested in the CONDITION of the few or many that filled them!" (the
pews) When a baby is born you don't just throw it outside and let it fend for
itself.  You try to provide a clean wholesome environment for them.  You try
to nurture them.  In the spiritual.  You don't pray with someone at church to
receive the Holy Ghost and then after they receive it, take them home and
watch a bunch of steamy soap operas. Now *that* would be illogical. 
 
 Skip:
  How many
saints in the typical church who have been faithfully attending for <=7
years could stand and debate the Trinity vs Oneness; eternal security vs
backsliding; salvation via Acts 2:38 vs salvation by confession of
belief on Jesus Christ as your personal savior; etc..
 
 Mike:
 Maybe our church is atypical.
 
 Skip:
 Several years ago the church I was attending had a debate Trinity vs
Oneness among the young men.  I was the only one willing to take the
losing side - I won.  I managed to prove the Trinity better than the
rest were able to prove the Oneness.  That was a sad day.

 Mike:
 Just out of curiosity, did someone tell you that you won the debate, or did
you just go away feeling like you did and that they were illogical and didn't
make sense?
 
 Skip:
 That is the crux of the problem.  As a general rule, leadership forms a
group of rules based on tradition, Bible, and education (yes, that is a
part of it).  
 
 Mike:
 Is there a problem here?  Surely you don't have a problem with *all*
unbiblical traditions do you? If so, I will save your answer to disk and
remind you of it in December.  The "crux" of the problem is that some people
just don't like rules.
 
 Skip:
 (how many
times has someone on this list replied the UPCI rules/regs were made by
Holy Ghost filled prayerful men?) to the leadership.
 
 Mike:
 As for as I am concerned, I don't care what the UPC "leadership" does.
 
 Skip:
  There are contradictions in the rules.

 Mike:
 No doubt you feel that way Skip.  And in some churches there may be a real or
apparent contradiction in the rules or there implementation, but the fact of
the matter is, we have to have rules, we have to have standards, everybody has
them.
 
 Skip:
 The rules change from place to place.
 
 Mike:
 I don't see a problem here either.  There may be a pastor at one church that
believes a little differently in one area than another.  So what.  You know
you can move if you don't like it.  That is what I would do.
 
 Skip:
 When the standards prevent Jesus Christ and the
Apostles from preaching in a church the standards are wrong.
 
 Mike:
 Agreed.
 
 Skip:
 Oh, my greatest source of iritation is people trying to fix God's church.
 
 Mike:
 That is really weird Skip.  Were you not that guy that wrote about looking
for the perfect church and what you felt it would be like?  Apparently you
were trying to fix all the imperfect churches around you.  If you ever find
it, don't join it cause it will no longer be perfect.
 
 Skip:
 Modest is modest.
 
 Mike:
 And you are a debater?  Modesty is relative.  We have guide lines that
determine modesty.  Some are biblical some are societal some are some are
drawn by a pastor.
 Everybody has their own idea of where those lines should be drawn, why not
let the man of God do it?

 Skip:
 A dress down to the
ankles/wrists and up to the neck isn't modest if it is see-through and
skin tight (yes, this was on a choir member during a service, more than
one). 
 
 Mike:
 ATTENTION!!!  EVEN SKIP HAS STANDARDS!!!!