Pastors Leading the flock???)

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On 09/02/98 at 09:19 AM, lyohnk@juno.com (Lynne A. Yohnk) said:

>Skip,

>I must say I was moved by your post. 

Thank you.

>What grieves me is that we *cannot* do away with holiness standards and be
>pleasing to God.

But their are no Biblical "holiness standards".  Holiness is being
pure/consecrated/dedicated to God.  Standards are _rules_; rules don't
make people holy - the Holy Ghost does.

How much time is spent educating baby saints in the "holiness standards"
while leaving their basic Bible education for a latter day?  How many
saints in the typical church who have been faithfully attending for <=7
years could stand and debate the Trinity vs Oneness; eternal security vs
backsliding; salvation via Acts 2:38 vs salvation by confession of
belief on Jesus Christ as your personal savior; etc..

Is it any wonder we are considered to be a cult?  When the average
answer to why are you dressed the way you are is "Pastor said so" it
_is_ a cult.  When "Pastor said so" is the answer to why do you believe
xyz the church is a cult.

Several years ago the church I was attending had a debate Trinity vs
Oneness among the young men.  I was the only one willing to take the
losing side - I won.  I managed to prove the Trinity better than the
rest were able to prove the Oneness.  That was a sad day.

The members of this list are _not_ average church members.  Many are
Pastors, Ministers, Teachers, etc.  All have shown a more than normal
commitment by being here discussing these topics.

>I try to be pleasing to Him.  No one has perfect understanding of the
>scriptures.  

That is the crux of the problem.  As a general rule, leadership forms a
group of rules based on tradition, Bible, and education (yes, that is a
part of it).  After that has been done, to question the rules implies
questioning of the calling/spirituality of the leadership (how many
times has someone on this list replied the UPCI rules/regs were made by
Holy Ghost filled prayerful men?) to the leadership.

>What I see as a major flaw in thinking is that people equate no
>standards with all the wonderful things you stated above.  Why? 
>Because often standards are our main point of contention and pride.

If you ever see me you'll know I have no reason to be proud of how I
look.  The main contention I have with the "holiness standards" is
simple: they make no sense, follow no logic, and have minimal Biblical
basis.  If the logic behind the "holiness standards" was followed to
it's logical conclusion it wouldn't be so bad.  There are contradictions
in the rules.  The rules change from place to place.  If it is Bible it
doesn't change.  When the standards prevent Jesus Christ and the
Apostles from preaching in a church the standards are wrong.

>What I am saying is that if we as a people would pray, fast and seek
>the face of God instead of trying to remedy these things in the flesh
>we would succeed.  We could be more like the church you want.

Oh, my greatest source of iritation is people trying to fix God's
church.  Take the busy bodies and gossipers out behind the church and
have a rock concert.  God don't need the Holiness Police.

>What grieves me to no end is the thought that if we were rid of
>standards that we would be free of contention and more Godly.  It's
>just not true.

What did Jesus say to the Pharasies concerning all the extras they (via
the elders) added to God's law?

I'm not saying we should look like the world, I'm saying we should
follow what is written in the Bible - not add
interpretations/feelings/etc.  Modest is modest.  A dress down to the
ankles/wrists and up to the neck isn't modest if it is see-through and
skin tight (yes, this was on a choir member during a service, more than
one).  The dress was within the church standards, the Pastor hadn't
think about adding a line for see-through.

Item by item rules take away personal responsibility.  Teach the Bible,
then if the Pastor is inclinded set a higher standard for the leadership
so they will be above reproach.  It is impossible to legislate righteous
living (otherwise the U.S.A. would be the most crime free place on
earth).  Give the saints the information, explain the information, and
then make them responsible for themselves.

*Pastors on the list don't take this part personally* 

There isn't a Pastor who has ever lived able to take his flock to
Heaven. There isn't a Pastor who has ever lived able to write the rules
enabling his flock to make Heaven.  Adding rules "to cover every
situation" just gives people a cop out - Pastor said...


Skip

Yes personal responsibility is required.

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