The Perfect Church (was Re: Pastors Leading the flock???)

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On 09/01/98 at 07:05 AM, lyohnk@juno.com (Lynne A. Yohnk) said:

>On Tue, 01 Sep 98 00:24:35 grimel@icx.net (George R) writes: 

>>When is it unity and when is it blind following?
>>
>>Skip

>Okay Bro.  please give a discourse of your perfect church.  Is it
>without holiness standards?  What is it you want?  Having standards and
>desiring holiness in the church and not bickering over every dot and
>tittle is not absurd, it is true submission, respect and true holiness. 
>What is absurd is thinking everybody can make their own rules and then
>we will have what is scriptural.  God bless you today.

Oh Sister do you have any idea what you ask?  People will be running for
cover; moderators will be frazzled; delete keys worn out; and the
archieves overflowing.

But here goes it.  The first principle of a good scholarly disertation
is plagarism; and I want to do a good disertation.

I have a dream.  I have a dream of a church where people are judged by
the content of their character; not the color of their clothes.  I dream
of a church where the Bible is the final authority in all matters.

I'm a simple man, I see things in black and white not shades of gray. 
The perfect church must of course be founded on the perfect foundation,
teaching the perfect message of salvation, and teaching the Bible with
perfect understanding.  This is an impossible condition, seeing we are
imperfect men.

So, we must strive to perfect the church by studying the Bible; being
careful to keep the teachings of the church Biblically acurate.  Now
that I've described the perfect church in general terms, on to the
details (a.k.a. the arguments start here).

In the ideal church holiness standards (standards of holiness) don't
exist seeing there is no such Biblical basis for such a term.  Holy
being dedicated/sactified to/for God (or pure).  This implies a
condition of the soul.  Hence standards (rules) can not change this
condition, only allow for a false front to be made.  Is the new convert
holy upon completion of the Acts 2:38 experiance?  Or must some other
conditions be met?  

Yes, some would call following standards (the teachings of men),
desiring holiness, and not questioning every jot and tidle true
submission; but others would call it asking for trouble and rebelling
against the Bible.

Holiness should be the heart felt need of every Apostolic - end of
discussion on that topic.

Allowing the teachings of men (especially those which have Biblical
examples of the oppostite) to take equal status as the Bible should make
every Apostolic's soul heavy.

As for arguing every jot and tittle, it isn't arguing it is wanting
Biblical justification for what is being taught/expected.  Not asking
questions appears to be against several passages of Scripture; strange
thing is that when the old remember them which have rule over you verse
is read in it's complete form the supposed meaning is changed.  The
piece about considering their life coupled with Paul's teaching to the
Corinthians makes a strong case for asking questions and expecting
Biblical (not I feel/think) answers.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that
needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.  Matthew
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or
one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 
Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other
gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be
accursed. 

Hebrews 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken
unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of
[their] conversation.  1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as
I also [am] of Christ. 

Funny thing, I'm a manager, I don't expect anything of anyone I
don't/won't do myself.  _AND_ I am confident in my requirements to the
degree that I invite the why questions.  If I can't answer the
questions, I have no business with the requirements.  Some of the
answers aren't good answers (because OSHA says so is an example of a
bad, yet valid answer).

I'm almost positive that the archieves could be checked and I won't be
found to state everyone should be able to make their own rules.  The
rules I want in a church are the rules with a Biblical basis.  If the
Pastor wants to add rules to that list, he better (see Gal 1:8) preface
the rules with a statement such as: I would like to have for this
congregation the following extra rules ....  I feel led by God to
establish such rules for the local congregation.

That little statement makes a world of differance.  To say "Thus saith
the Lord" and not be able to back it up with Scripture borders on
begging to be accursed.  Yet to say, "the Lord has impressed upon me
that we should also do ...." or "it is _my_ belief that .... should be
done" makes it clear the rule is _extra_ and he knows it.  It is a
personal preferance/belief.  As such in the _local_ congregation it
carries much weight; but outside the local congregation it is worthless.

In the church I attend, the Pastor has several personal beliefs.  Before
I started attending this church, I talked at great length to him about
what I expected and what he expected.  He isn't my perfect Pastor, we
disagree on many topics; but in this area he is the "least of the
evils".  His wife doesn't like my constant "challanges" (in private),
but he appreciates being "kept on his toes".  When I first started
attending here he had a policy of no men with beards will teach/preach
from the platform _or_ hold an office in the church.  As many know I
have a beard and have had a beard for several years.  This lead to a
discussion, a few months ago he had a bearded man teaching/preaching on
Sunday night (no not me, he hasn't lost his mind, yet).  I used to be a
cell group leader (had to stop now that my job has me who knows where
who knows when) beard and all; I still teach the lessons if I am home on
the caregroup nights.  What happened?  Someone questioned the rules
wanting a Biblical answer and a lifetime of preconcieved ideas went
away.

What do I want in a perfect church?  One that follows the Bible and
spends more time reaching new people than "correcting" the new converts. 
One that follows the Bible and spends more time praying for guidance on
reaching the lost than policing the Saints for standard adherance.  One
that features outreach not fitting a mold.  One that finds time to pray
with a brother not condem.  One that practices love and forgiveness, not
smuge superiority and judgement.  One that loves the sinner, yet fights
the sin.  One that uses all available means to reach the lost, not
condeming forms of communication as sin.

The only problem is if I find the perfect church this side of Heaven, I
can't attend for with my presence perfection would be lost.

SKip

In the begining God said "BANG" and it was "BIG"

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