Re[2]: Cute Fable - good point!

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At 08:59 AM 9/28/95 -0500, you wrote:
>You missed the true point.  I was not implying that angels are better
>than us, but the note was directed towards  people who are
>unregenerate and thus LOWER than angels.  THEY think that higher
>progress is in technology and "higher" education.  THEY are wrong.

You didn't read *MY* message.  I argued that progress *was* education.  Out
of curiosity, why are we lower than the angels because of being
"unregenerate."  Let us not forget that a third of the angels were thrown
out of heaven for being so.

They can't experience what we do.  We are the sons of God and not they.

>And christian religions that do not believe in new birth and
>regeneration of the Spirit have the tendency to likewise uphold
>intellectualism above spirituality, although they say the two are one
>and the same (check out the RCC for example).  How can they know what
>is truly spiritual if they do not even comprehend new birth of the
>Spirit?

For me, spirituality and intellectualism are two components of the very same
thing.  
Both are very necessary.

>The wise of this world seek for wisdom and won't find God in it.
>Check out the Greeks in context with Paul's words in 1 Cor. 1:18-28.
>Check it out!  Education is natural.  That does not make it bad.  It
>just makes it outside the whole realm of the Spirit of God.

*WRONG*!  Education is in the Spirit of God.  Why did He put the tree of
knowledge in the garden?  Because He wanted us to get our hands on it.
Without the tree, He would have had humans following him around much like
pets.  However, because we took part of the tree, we now know good and evil.
God wanted us to know that, for it is this knowledge that gave us the
freedom to choose between God and Satan.  That's what He wanted -- someone
who would serve Him because they wanted to, not because s/he was forced to
do so.

Now, I can agree that you can use education in a negative, evil way.  But,
you can use most anything nowadays in an evil manner.

>the baptism of the Holy Ghost.  In other words, intellectualism is
>fully mine to ascend into without God in my life.

Huh-uh.  True intellectualism cannot and will not be found without God.  We
didn't know the difference between good and evil before God put it where we
could get our hands on it, and I don't think that we'll know anything more
until God decides to let us know about it.

>That doesn't make it bad, it only makes it useless in pursuing God.
>It's of the old creation.  And nothing from the old can assist the new
>creature in Christ as far as progressing in God's Kingdom is
>concerned.

Huh?  You must be trying to argue that Christ was the new creation.  Well,
okay.  But that does not allow us to neglect the "old" creation, because,
without it, well, you wouldn't be here.

>It's like saying there are GOOD sinners and bad
>sinners.  But they're still sinners, and sentence of death is still
>upon their lives simply because they are not born again into the new
>creation.  God's kingdom is not a matter of what is good or bad,
>despite the popular opinion.  It is whether a thing is flesh or
>spirit.  Things born of flesh (like education) will ALWAYS BE
>FLESH.  Only that born of Spirit is spirit (John 3:5-6).  There are
>GOOD fleshly things, like education.  We need them.  Paul called
>giving money a "CARNAL" gift.  It's necessary, though, isn't it.  But
>our RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD and that relationship's growth and progress
>does not involve anything carnal.

I'm not sure that I'm catching your association here.  Oh, and in my mind,
there's three things that comprise our world, flesh, evil spirits, and good
spirits.

>Whatever I can have without God will not help me know Him.  That which
>is spiritual cannot be experienced by unregenerate people.  Education
>is not spiritual.

So, let me follow this.  Since I am educated, I am not spiritual.  Then,
since I am not spiritual, I cannot experience spiritual things.  Therefore,
I can never hope to achieve God, right?

>I know a mathematician, Joe Gaut, who has deep revelatory experiences.
>But he recognizes that he must always ensure that his brain does not
>get in the way of his spirit.  the mind is to be put in its place of
>value UNDER the things of the Spirit.

The mind is to be led into deeper intellectualism by the Spirit.  That, is
my point.

>Wow, brother!  Did you ever take that out of context!  Knowledge of
>God's Law is certainly not the knowledge of education.

Context, schmontext!  What makes you feel that that verse is out of context?
It is the way that you have been brought up to understand the Bible.  (You
were educated about how to read the Bible.)  And, if someone had never
bothered to learn how to translate the scriptures from Greek/Hebrew into
English, you wouldn't even have that verse, anyway.

We as Pentecostals like to pretend like we know what the "context" of
scriptures really are.  However, to me, the "context" of a scripture,
whatever that may or may not be, is somehow tied up in the historical and
cultural traditions in which it was written.  So, if you wanna make sure
your pastor is using verses "in context," then we need to make sure that
they all get an *education*; that they all go to Bible school to learn the
context of the scriptures.

Okay, now I want to explain why I didn't take the scripture out of context.
The Laws of Thermodynamics are God's law; the Law (Theory) of Gravity is
God's law; the Law of Reflection is God's law; the Law of Refraction is
God's law; Planck's constant is God's law; the Laws of Motion are God's law;
and the speed of light is God's law.  We cannot get around them, we cannot
really change them.  They're there.  God put them there, and there's no way
that we can alter them.  Only He who created the laws has any authority to
break them and/or allow them to be broken.  Education is the process of
learning about God's laws.

>Jesus said we shall KNOW THE TRUTH and the TRUTH shall set us free.
>That is what Hosea referred to.  Not carnal knowledge, but knowledge
>of the things of God!  You won't get that in a university.

I have learned a great *many* things about God by attending a university.

>God's law is
>so simple that a *fool* (educationally witless) will not err therein,
>thus discriminating carnal intellectual knowledge from
>spiritual knowledge.

I'm not sure that I agree with you there.  If that is your true belief and
position, then we don't need churches because God is so simple that we don't
need to go and learn about Him.  That's wrong -- God is much more complex
than that.

Frankly, without your education, you could not even understand God's Word.
There's been a great deal of evidence that, if you don't learn how to speak
early on in life, you'll never be able to effectively do it.  Language is a
must to be able to understand, for, without it, we would get nothing from
the Bible.

Irregardless of how you look at it, education is a necessary predeterminant
for salvation.  (Whoa, that was taking a leap out there.)  Unless God
chooses to violate some of His rules, you're pretty much gonna have to have
some kind of education to be able to grasp His concepts.

That's why we go to church -- to be educated about spiritual matters.
That's why you pay a pastor tithes; so that he can have the time to spend
with God to learn things from God.  Then, he comes to you and *teaches* you
what he learned from God.  Spirituality and education are two inseparable
elements in our relationship with God.

>God takes pleasure in our highly developed intellects?  Poor old John
>the Baptist.  Living in the desert and all.  He missed out on so much,
>but was still called a prophet of higher status than any other before
>him!  Hmmmmm.

John had an education.  After all, if he hadn't, he wouldn't have been able
to write down all the stuff that he did for you.

>Please reread the fable and realise that it is merely comparing
>priorities in what we value as compared to what God values.  It is NOT
>saying that anti-education is the way to go.  But, maybe some need to
>hear a bit about their abundance of concern over the carnal that may
>be over and above the spiritual.

I don't think that I will.  I wasn't happy about it the first time, and I'll
probably just be more teed-off the second time.

I could wax philosophical here, but, instead of going on and on, I'll just
wax off for now.

Kyle
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R. Kyle Jones                       || Internet: rkjones@fas.harvard.edu
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"Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen,
I will be exalted in the earth."
                                     Psalms 46:10

R. Kyle Jones is not a licensed nor practicing psychologist, but merely an
undergraduate studying psychology.  Any advice given should not be 
miscontrued in any fashion to indicate any form of professional counseling.
Please seek a practicing professional for any mental health or other
professional counseling concerns.