Litteral & I again on Beards

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Bro. Tim Litteral said:
> Offense?  Sorry, Sis but I don't see that one either.  I thought you were
> talking about whether it was "wrong" to wear a beard and then you went on
> to explain how your husband was "subtly" nudged by peer pressure into
> shaving and now the pastor uses him in church and you are more
comfortable.
>  I just missed what it was that you were trying to say, unless that was
it?
> 
me: Yes, you missed the point of what I was trying to say, see my
post responding to your post to Pastor Fitzgeral. I don't want to be
accused of being redundant. 

Bro. Tim said:
> I know I may sound like a "smart alec" here but I try to establish the
> "meaning" of what is written.  Often I find that with a "little" probing
> into what people write, we get to the "heart" of thoughts and attitudes,
> and once there, these turn out to be based upon something
 much DIFFERENT than people, even I,  thought.  Our thoughts and responses
become automatic and we (us: you, y'all and I) fail to examine them for
what they really are.  I strip things to the "frame" and then say to you
and to myself "Is this what you thought it was?"
> 
me: Maybe you are trying to read **too deep** into things. Sort of like
those people who play records backwards to see if they have any
hidden messages. :-) :-).

Bro. Tim:
> This is nothing personal but in general, we feel that because a person
has disagreed with us, they are "mad" at us.  I get personally
offended myself and then I reread the post and say "They don't have
anything against me,  they just disagree."

me: Point well taken here. Remember I am relatively new to Higher Fire.
I need to get a little thicker skin, I guess. Did you read my post "People
are more honest online"? As a rule, I am better at assessing the nature
of one's conversation face-to-face. Through the years (as a banker and
loan officer) I have become "pretty" good at picking up on body language,
cues, etc.  

I further stated: 
> My husband's beard/mustache was never a symbol of 
>  rebellion, as I clearly stated that he was willing to shave if asked by
> our pastor....
> 
>You responded:
> Right, so why did he have to shave it then, and he did have to shave it? 
 

Again I will say:  He did not *have*  to shave it. He CHOSE to shave it.
Why, well let's see. # 1 Conviction. #2 Love for his wife. #3 Because
he did not want to be a hindrance, or stumbling block to anyone 
else in the Church. #4 Respect for our Pastor and the Church standards.

I also said: 
> We women need to teach our daughters the beauty of holiness by example.
If  we live it **and** love it, so will they!
> 
> You said:
> I think the women should teach their daughters that God looks upon the
> heart, and it is your "actions" from a pure heart that are beautiful and
> that as long as your appearance doesn't directly CAUSE someone to sin, or
> is a stumbling block to the weak, but teachable saint, what they wear is
> between them and God.

my response: We really are at opposite ends on this issue.
I, also, truly believe that God looks upon the heart. I do not believe
that standards are legalism.  Legalism cannot produce inward holiness, 
for holiness can only come by the Holy Ghost. Our alternative to legalism
 is to live by love, faith, and the Spirit. When we love God, have faith 
in his Word, we will apply holiness principles to *every* situation we
encounter in life.  I believe we have these principles (call them Standards
 if you wish) to guide our conduct under *all* circumstances. We should
not seek **minimum** requirements. If what you said is true, then you
must see no need for a Pastor in the Church. You could study the bible
for yourself and get *everything* you need. But you see, I am not a 
scholar of the Word. There are *many* things in the Bible, I still
don't fully understand.  I don't want to fall into the ditch of liberalism
on the left, and extremism on the right. I want to stay on the road
to Heaven. I want my daughter to stay on the same road. God
has placed her in my care and I don't want her to be lost. 
I believe sobriety, modesty and shamefacedness is essential. 
Maybe we interpret the meaning of these three words differently, 
or perhaps we differ on the manner in which they are to be
achieved.

You said:
 Until they get married that is, and THEN their
> husbands have control over how they look, only in the Lord.  

me: You are single, right? Have you ever pictured in your mind the ideal
mate.  Will she be "acceptable" in your sight if she looks like the world?
Just asking! :-)


You further stated:
 I think we do our children a great injustice to teach them that a
> saint looks one particular way, mostly, because it JUST ISN'T TRUE.

me: Mostly, IT IS TRUE, Brother Tim. If one is *truly* seeking the face 
of God their exterior appearance *will* be a reflection of what's inside.
Sometimes it just takes some of us a little longer than others.


I said:
> But, surely, you wouldn't think it ever appropriate to preach in
another's church without a suit and tie? 
 
You responded:
> Sure I would.  Why not?  Like I said, if the Lord shows me that it will
> offend to the point that the "unlearned" will miss the greater message,
> I'll even shave, ZAP! the beard is gone, without hesitation:

me: "Unlearned" hmmm? You know Brother Tim, I have only had the
Holy Ghost for five years. I believe you stated in an earlier post that 
you received it three years ago. I think we *both* still have a *lot*
to learn. 

 I earlier said:
 As a final note, if your beard does not condemn you, far be it from
 me to do so. God sees our hearts and he knows our innermost thoughts.
 That's good enough for me!

you responded: 
> This statement kinda "losses" something when I see that most
 "say" this and then I compare it to what they "practice." 
 This is not a matter of my "innermost" thoughts either, but of 
Biblical Holiness and who establishes the "standards" of what is 
Holy and what is not.

me again: Bro Tim, we all have to seek our salvation with fear
and trembling. As for me,  I would much rather err on the side 
of caution. I once heard someone say "when I get to Heaven and find
out I could have done some of the things that our Pastor
preached against, I'm *really* gonna let him "have it". Well here's
what I'll say to my Pastor  "Thank you **so much** for caring about
my soul enough that you preached  *and taught* what the Lord
laid on your heart" Maybe there are a few things we could do
and still make it into heaven O.K., but my salvation is simply not
worth the risk.  I truly believe one could make it to Heaven with a full
beard *if* their heart, spirit and attitude are as they should be. I
myself, prefer to submit myself when, and *as*, required.

Donna L. Perine
fmbritchie@citynet.net