Was: Litteral on Beards; Now: Beard on Litteral?

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You:
ouch ouch ouch!!! Did I step on your toes, or are you stepping on mine!
Either way, no offense was intended!

Me:
Offense?  Sorry, Sis but I don't see that one either.  I thought you were
talking about whether it was "wrong" to wear a beard and then you went on
to explain how your husband was "subtly" nudged by peer pressure into
shaving and now the pastor uses him in church and you are more confortable.
 I just missed what it was that you were trying to say, unless that was it?

I know I may sound like a "smart alec" here but I try to establish the
"meaning" of what is written.  Often I find that with a "little" probing
into what people write, we get to the "heart" of thoughts and attitudes,
and once there, these turn out to be based upon something much DIFFERENT
than people, even I,  thought.  Our thoughts and responses become automatic
and we (us: you, y'all and I) fail to examine them for what they really
are.  I strip things to the "frame" and then say to you and to myself "Is
this what you thought it was?"

This is nothing personal but in general, we feel that because a person has
disagreed with us, they are "mad" at us.  I get personally offended myself
and then I reread the post and say "They don't have anything against me,
they just disagree."

One assumes the "tone" of ones "voice" here too.  

You:
 So many people "assumed" my husband was unsaved because of the full
beard/mustache. 

Me:
Nothing personal here Sis, OK.  Good. ;-)  This is what "burns my toast." 
What ever gives anyone the idea that a person is not saved because they
have a beard?  Even if they wear jewelry, it doesn't mean that they are not
saved.  They need to be told about not adorning themselves, but that
doesn't mean they are not saved.  Uniformity is not necessarily Holiness. 
Think of how many are "shut out" for these silly "rules."

You:
My husband's beard/mustache was never a symbol of 
 rebellion, as I clearly stated that he was willing to shave if asked by
our pastor....

Me:
Right, so why did he have to shave it then, and he did have to shave it? 
See Sis, this is what I mean.  No one can find ANYTHING in the Bible that
said he was "unholy" if he kept the beard.  It didn't bother you UNTIL it
bothered others.  The pastor, with his "keen" SPIRITUAL insight looked
right to his heart, well no, he didn't have to go that far, did he?  Once
he saw the beard he KNEW your husband wasn't going to get unto HIS
platform.  Then you say that wearing a beard is a "personal" conviction.  I
scratch my head and say "That is not what *I* just read, looks like the
husband had no conviction at all to me, but "went along with the crowd" to
be accepted."  That's all I meant when I said that I couldn't find your
point.  Now I know I have stepped on some toes here, but I think these
should be taken from the aisle!

You:
We women need to teach our daughters the beauty of holiness by example. If
we live it **and** love it, so will they!

Me:
I think the women should teach their daughters that God looks upon the
heart, and it is your "actions" from a pure heart that are beautiful and
that as long as your appearance doesn't directly CAUSE someone to sin, or
is a stumbling block to the weak, but teachable saint, what they wear is
between them and God. Until they get married that is, and THEN their
husbands have control over how they look, only in the Lord.  This is true
for the husband too, the wife has control of his body, and what he puts on
it, only in the Lord.  THAT'S Bible, every word of it!  Watch the toes now.
;^)  I think we do our children a great injustice to teach them that a
saint looks one particular way, mostly, because it JUST ISN'T TRUE.

Yeah, my outward appearance has changed too, DRASTICALLY, but I still don't
really "look" saved.  That is of course only in the PICTURES.  Half a
minute with me in person and the Truth is evident, Glory be to God!
 
> You (me, Bro. Tim) further stated: 
>  I have heard it all.  It all comes down to this, if your pastor will not
let me preach in your church with my beard and without a suit and tie, he
has sinned.  This goes for all those who "stick to their own orginization"
too.

You (Sis. Donna):
 It is not up to me who preaches in our Church. That is for
 my Pastor to decide. 

Me:
This is true.  In the greater sense though, it is up to God.

You:
But, surely, you wouldn't think it ever appropriate to preach in another's
church without a suit and tie? We're not talking street revival or camp
meeting here. 

Me:
Sure I would.  Why not?  Like I said, if the Lord shows me that it will
offend to the point that the "unlearned" will miss the greater message,
I'll even shave, ZAP! the beard is gone, without hesitation:

1 Corinthians 9
19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto
all, that I might gain the more. 

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them
that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are
under the law; 

21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to
God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without
law. 

22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all
things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 

23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof
with you.

Here's the "corker" Sis.  I would shave and put on a tie to preach in a
church and the pastor would then refuse me this because I am rebellious! 
Go figure. 

Galatians 6:13
For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to
have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh. 

Don't see the conection?  Circumcision was the "token" of Holiness in this
day.  What are the "tokens" of our time?

You:
As for your beard, if my Pastor felt you had a message from God, I believe
he would permit you to deliver it. 

Me:
That ones easy enough, ask him for me, will ya Sis?  Really.  

You:
Our pastor has those "eyes" that can see right through you. He is a praying
man, and I believe God has given him the gift of discernment. He would be
able to see past your beard (even though he doesn't like beards on the
platform)  and see into your heart. He's that kind of man.

Me:
I'm sure he is a fine man.  Point is this wasn't hypothetical was it?  Your
husband was used just fine in the old church, you move to the new church,
he isn't used, he shaves and he gets used.  "Seems to me" the pastor missed
his ONE opportunity to prove your point.
 
You:
As a final note, if your beard does not condemn you, far be it from me to
do so. God sees our hearts and he knows our innermost thoughts. That's good
enough for me!

Me:
This statement kinda "losses" something when I see that most "say" this and
then I compare it to what they "practice."  This is not a matter of my
"innermost" thoughts either, but of Biblical Holiness and who establishes
the "standards" of what is Holy and what is not.

I do not oppose you Sis, just the position I have portrayed.  And if I
"step on the toes" of those who hold it, well....

Timothy Litteral
brotim@gte.net Luke 6:26
http://home1.gte.net/brotim
http://home1.gte.net/brotim/science.htm