Jan's Question

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Mike Murphy said:
>>1Tim 4:10 "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope=

>>set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of 
>>those who believe."
> 
> Thinking it to show that nobody is emperiled by sin in any relevant or
> permanent sense. I take it to mean that when Yeshua shed his life's 
> blood  at Skull Hill, the doors of salvation swung wide open to all men=
 
> everywhere who repent and are washed in the water according to the 
> preaching. However, not all men accept this message. Remember, "God so =

> loved the [entire] world" that he sent his Son down from heaven (Jn 
> 3:16, 6:38, 1Jn 4:14).

> However, "whoever trusts the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys=
 
> the Son will not see that life but remains subject to God's wrath." (Jn=
 
> 3:36).

And God's wrath came over those people Jesus was talking to in 70 AD. The=
 
concept of eternal punishment is and has been completely foreign to 
Judaistic religion. You who use quasi-Hebrew names all the time should 
know that: Jews believe in universal salvation. Jesus never contradicted =

the pharisee's expectations on afterlife. On the contrary, both Christ 
and Paul affirmed that they were seated firmly on the side of the 
pharisees on this question.

> So, God has "saved" all men, but not all men accept this and comply. 
> Hear!

Not very logical, Murph. 

Parable mode: I see three people who are about to drown, and I say to 
them: "I will help those of you who can manage to swim over here." Only 
one is able to swim over where I am, and I save him, without even getting=
 
wet. The other two drown. Am I then "the saver of all these men"?

You are making God very small if he's unable to save all men. And you are=
 
making hum cruel if you say he is unwilling to save all men.

> "But in connection with the coming of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah and 
> our gathering together to meet him we ask you, brothers, not to be 
> easily shaken in your thinking ... claiming that they day of the Lord 
> has already come. DON'T LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU IN THIS WAY." 1 
>                                     ^^^^^^^
> Thessolonikos 2:1,2b

> So if 0Eystein claims the day has already come, he is seeking to 
> deceive us. 

Come'on, Murph. Try to *think*. If your interpretation was correct, that =

would mean that the day of the Lord *can never come*. Never.

It's a gross anachronism to use this scripture like that. It was a letter=
 
written to Thessaloniki in Greece around 54AD. You can't just cut it out =

and apply the text randomly to people living today.

> Remember, beloved brothers and sisters, we are waiting for Yah Veh God =

> to send yeshua back from heaven where he now rests until the 
> conclusion. 

You'll be waiting, and waiting, and waiting...

When is it time to stop making christianity a mockery to all the world? 
Christ said he would come *soon*. When is "soon" over? 3000 years? 4000 
years?

Paul said about the rapture:

  1Thess 4:16,17 "And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are=
 
  alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the
  clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the =

  Lord."

So, I ask you: Were Paul's expectations fulfilled or were they not?

If you think they were not, why not just throw out the whole book? If 
Paul -- and Christ himself! -- was wrong in such a central question, he's=
 
likely to be wrong in everything.


Cheers,
- Jan
-- 
          http://home.sol.no/jansh/wteng/jwindex.html